what exactly separates worldly WPers from the hermits?

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sort yourselves into these categories, por favor

i am a captain of the universe, an alpha human	3%	[ 4 ]
i'm the captain's lieutenant, a beta or middle manager	2%	[ 3 ]
i am a foreman or supervisor of the worker bees	3%	[ 4 ]
i am a long-suffering worker bee	10%	[ 14 ]
i am a hermit, and almost totally out of the picture	38%	[ 54 ]
i am an entrepreneur/independent contractor	11%	[ 16 ]
i am retired or independently wealthy	3%	[ 4 ]
i really love ice cream!	31%	[ 44 ]

Total votes : 143

Horus
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29 May 2010, 5:14 pm

anbeund wrote

Quote:

(which often depends on the exploitation of people who aren't considered successful even though they generally do the harder work -- not what I consider success, personally).

I can't think of too many cases within the capitalist system
where the "successful" aren't exploiting the "unsuccessful"
in some way, shape, or form.

Horus
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29 May 2010, 5:19 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

"I think therefore I am" sums it up IMO.

A lot of people I've seen on here post about how they're failures, they can't do anything, etc, so that's what keeps happening.

Instead, what you need to do is learn from your mistakes and sum up the motivation to try again, and believe you can do it.

Yes, I am aware that sounds incredibly corny, but think about it - what separates a rich CEO NT from a shopkeeper NT? Absolutely nothing, apart from the fact that the CEO went out and made something of himself - and the same thing applies for us, too.

Was Richard Branson really different from anyone else, or did he just have the motivation to follow his massive dreams?

There is absolutely no reason that us Aspies can't become more successful than NTs, it's just that, like NTs, a lot of us are afraid of failure and stick to what we know as safe - so we end up stuck.

The sort of mentality expressed in this post has one foundational rationale:

The implicit belief in free will.

I'm afraid "free will" either has substantial limitations or it doesn't exist
at all.

Mosaicofminds
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29 May 2010, 5:28 pm

This is off topic, but I can't think of any economic system--capitalism, communism, feudalism, mercantilism, even barter--where most people are not exploited by others. I think people are exploited mainly because of human nature, and the existence of government and social classes, not so much because of the economic system under which they live.

If Asp-Z meant that just working hard, and picking yourself up and trying again, is enough to succeed, I don't think that's true, especially for someone with a learning disability. But I've definitely seen people become depressed, stop trying to improve themselves, and make their lives DRASTICALLY worse because they believe they can't do any better than they're already doing. If that's what Asp-Z is talking about, then I think he's right. In my case, years of hard, endless work have led to many incremental improvements in all my areas of weakness. But even if having a positive (or at least a dogged) attitude didn't make my life better, I'd settle for it not getting worse.

NeverEnder
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29 May 2010, 6:13 pm

I am "worldly" but prefer my current hermit status. Much more low-stress, no people besides my girlfriend, my pets, my art, etc. No interference from the outside.

This is not always ideal. I have a full-time career (I am on medical leave for Depression at this time). I do not wish to return to work-- anywhere, ever. :shrug:

I just try to balance my real-world stresses (people, noise, light) and come home and pursue my passions.

auntblabby
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29 May 2010, 10:51 pm

Horus wrote:

I'm afraid "free will" either has substantial limitations or it doesn't exist at all.

YES! finally, somebody here said it. free will doesn't work when the will is warped. it's rather like trying to drive a car with square wheels- the ride is awfully bumpy and one doesn't get very far before a breakdown.

Mosaicofminds
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29 May 2010, 11:08 pm

I do believe in free will, but not in "willpower." Thanks to my diagnoses, while I feel I can choose from various available options, I often don't like any of them. As for "willpower," it covered up my LDs for years and brought me a great deal of stress, depression, and near burnout. I wish people would realize not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

bee33
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30 May 2010, 12:47 am

Horus wrote:

I can't think of too many cases within the capitalist system
where the "successful" aren't exploiting the "unsuccessful"
in some way, shape, or form.

Can you think of any? I don't think I can.

Mosaicofminds wrote:

There are some instances of egalitarian societies, though they are not perfect. For example, some indigenous groups who live in the Amazon rainforest or the Zapatistas of Mexico. And there are some forms of government, like social democracies, that limit to some degree the exploitation that is a necessary mainstay of capitalism.

Danielismyname
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30 May 2010, 2:42 am

Desire?

auntblabby
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31 May 2010, 12:19 am

Danielismyname wrote:

Desire?

Asp-Z
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31 May 2010, 5:26 am

anbuend wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

Erm, only a limited number of people become CEOs. The "if you just try hard enough then you'll get there" myth only sounds feasible to people who manage to succeed at it. It's an insult to all the people who work harder than any CEO will ever work, at backbreaking jobs, and still end up with virtually nothing to show for it. And the people who send out a hundred resumes a day and never get a job.

That myth has been roundly debunked, it's obviously messed up if you look at the actual numbers of how many jobs are available versus how many people exist. It's a great self-centered ego boost to the people who manage to achieve what they view as success (which often depends on the exploitation of people who aren't considered successful even though they generally do the harder work -- not what I consider success, personally).

As for how it applies to autistic people it's equally messed up, or rather it only works for people whose bodies will tolerate the increased effort. It takes me all the effort I have just to get through the day. If left to my own devices (years ago when I was better at things) I starve and live in filth, and all the effort I throw into eating and drinking not only doesn't result in enough food and water, but results in all sensory input vanishing into nothing and all movement either vanishing or becoming a series of involuntary movements. You can't take someone who has problems of that sort and make them able to do any more "successful" things than they're doing. (Giving services helps but there's still that hard limit you hit where you can't see or hear or feel or move on your own and effort makes it worse. Nothing can get you past that.)

Extra effort only works for people with far fewer perceptual and motor issues than a lot of us have. Fortunately I don't define success by typical means. But I find it irresponsible to give the "just try harder" advice to a group of people that includes people who hit really intense shutdowns after a point. The proper advice for someone like me is, get as much help as you can (the less you're required to do the more energy you have for functioning), and pace yourself, and don't aim unrealistically high or get caught up in defining success the way most people do. Also, doing research on the "supercrip" and "overcoming" approaches to disability helps debunk the myths that behaving in that way is advisable or healthy for most people. Autistic people have something in common with people with polio -- the ones who work the hardest to pretend they don't have limitations, end up crashing the hardest later in life.

There are very few CEOs in the world, yes, but think about what I said about Richard Branson... Is he some sort of super human, or did he just have the motivation and ambition to follow his dreams? Because very few people in the world actually bother doing that, they just follow what everyone else does like sheep until everyone has the same goals in life (generally to have a family, get a mortgage, and be in a safe job), the end result being that everyone lives practically identical lives.

But think about this - and I use this example because it applies to me - imagine you wanted to get rich. What is physically stopping you from starting your own business right now, apart from yourself? Your own fear of failure, your own lack of self-esteem, your own lack of motivation. If you overcome those things and actually do something about achieving your dreams, then guess what? You have a far higher chance of achieving them. Most people don't do this, they're happy in their "normal" lives, and if they're satisfied with that then that's great for them - but that's the main reason why there are so few CEOs compared to other workers.

You talk about learning disabilities getting in your way... Well that depends on the disability you're talking about, but I never said anything about any of those, I said that I believe that us Aspies (Asperger's isn't a learning disability) have a LOT of potential for success. We can be very passionate about things, we learn everything about said subjects, become experts on them, we're creative, and we are logical. Those are some great qualities right there.

There are also real life examples of successful Aspies aplenty. The guy who created Pokemon was Aspie, as was the guy who wrote BitTorrent, and there's a multimillionaire hedge fund manager worth over $100,000,000 who's Aspie too. Those are people who are diagnosed and confirmed, BTW, not speculations like Bill Gates and the like (though, IMO, there's a high chance he's Aspie too).

Again, it comes down to this: if you believe you cannot do something, you have no chance of achieving it. Negative thoughts have negative effects, there are scientific/psychological theories backing that. But if you TRY to actually do something, and believe you can actually do it, you will succeed.

I'll prove it to you when I own the car in my avatar.

Danielismyname
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31 May 2010, 6:12 am

auntblabby wrote:

You know, the desire to go out there and try to do normal things; some succeed, some don't, some break and some...vanish.

Without said desire, you'll have the humble hermit who's cool with living beside humanity. A lack of drive to do normal things is a symptom of ASDs (some might have a stronger drive to be like everyone else than others, in other words)....

Aimless
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31 May 2010, 10:25 am

I always thought something was wrong with me that I had no drive. I kept waiting for something to come along that would magically change that. That's not to say I'm not interested in anything, I just have no desire to pursue success.

aussiebloke
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31 May 2010, 8:05 pm

Asp Z says:

and there's a multimillionaire hedge fund manager worth over $100,000,000 who's Aspie too. Those are people who are diagnosed and confirmed, BTW, not speculations like Bill Gates and the like (though, IMO, there's a high chance he's Aspie too

BTW (Confirmed) multimillionaire hedge fund manager who is it? I seriously question his aspie(ness) (strong moral compass) Anyone that sets up these types of "investment" houses I consider suspect also I question the intelligence of their customer base. Warren Buffet who I suspect is Aspie (as do several other people here ) claims derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction. and I think his right. Since entrepreneurship is your special interest I suggest you read one of his biographies theirs some great info in their:

www.randomhouse.com/bantamdell/snowball

I really admire your positive outlook on life I think you'll go far, unfortunately positive thoughts and being correctly medicated for our to often severe co morbid conditions (mine very very severe) can only get us so far we are all products of our upbringing.

I'm quite fond of Buffet he acknowledges he won the ovarian lottery been born in the "wealthiest" country in the world, good health, parents that cared, good education and more importantly he repeatedly acknowledges in the book he had a lot of good luck.

CockneyRebel
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31 May 2010, 10:13 pm

Nerves of steel. If I had nerves of steel, I'd be taking a stroll though the inner city, where I'm living, right now. I don't have nerves of steel, and my best friend is at a $100 plate dinner, so I choose to be cocooned up, in my little one room apartment, tonight.

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auntblabby
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01 Jun 2010, 12:11 am

Danielismyname wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

ok, i get it. as aimless said, i have no drive to pursue worldly success nor any clue as to how such is accomplished in the first place. i am barely tolerant of having to live on earth in the first place.

Asp-Z
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01 Jun 2010, 6:11 am

aussiebloke wrote:

Since entrepreneurship is your special interest I suggest you read one of his biographies theirs some great info in their:

www.randomhouse.com/bantamdell/snowball

I really admire your positive outlook on life I think you'll go far, unfortunately positive thoughts and being correctly medicated for our to often severe co morbid conditions (mine very very severe) can only get us so far we are all products of our upbringing.

I'm quite fond of Buffet he acknowledges he won the ovarian lottery been born in the "wealthiest" country in the world, good health, parents that cared, good education and more importantly he repeatedly acknowledges in the book he had a lot of good luck.

Buffett uses derivatives himself, don't be fooled, he does whatever's profitable - as an investor should.

The Aspie hedge fund manager is Micheal Burry, a short article on him can be found here, and you can read loads about him here and in The Big Short (book).

I myself plan to be a hedge fund manager when I'm older, I don't see what moral problems there are with it - people give me their money to invest for them, if I succeed I get paid, if I don't I get nothing.

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