Ways Girls May Mask ASD

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What do you think of this:

http://www.parentingkidswithaspergers.c ... action.pdf

I have no idea of this is an "official" checklist or one developed by a treatment center. Parts of it I like and related to (about 1/3) but I did think most of it could be masked. Still, it was good and could be "tweaked" to define social reciprocity for girls.

Hi whitetiger!

I signed the petition.

It´s very late, and I´m really tired and frazzled, so I´ll read your blog, and the other links, tomorrow- then I´ll comment. This subject is very important to me.

It's aimed at children again, but, yes, it could be tweaked, since it is a comprehensive list.
It could be used with an objective observor, to help identify your own behaviour, although I have recently been made aware that I do all the following, as well as other things, and now I just feel really uncomfortable when I talk to anyone. Especially since it was defined as 'my rudeness towards others'.

But I am quite often "socially indifferent and can take it or leave it with regard to interacting with others" - especially after being criticised and spoken to like I was a five-year old, by someone who appeared completely indifferent to how rude and intolerant they themselves were being.

D. Limited or abnormal use of nonverbal communication. The individual uses gestures, body language, or facial expressions infrequently or atypically when interacting with others.

2. Stares intensely at people or objects.
5. Uses gestures/body language, but in an unusual manner.
6. Does not appear to comprehend the gestures/body language of others.
7. Uses facial expressions that do not match the emotion being expressed.
9. Does not appear to comprehend the facial expressions of others.
10. Displays abnormal gestures/facial expressions/body posture when communicating.
E.g.: Does not turn to face the person she is talking to.

Absolutely agree 100% ! !! ! It doesn't seem right that anybody should have to go throught their whole life so lost and feeling that they don't belong, as you say. Yet that is life for me and many others. And as far as I can see, for AS adults, there doesn't seen to be anything being done to really help us. Sure there's a gamut of therapists, but you get the help they can provide, NOT the help you need. There is a huge difference.

Given that Aspie adults are a perenially unpopular cause, I'm a little uneasy about further categorising us into 'male' and 'female' aspies. I can see the reasoning behind including differences between male and female presentation of AS. My worry is that the way NT world works, "the squeeky wheel gets the oil". Also, to be perceived by NT's as "cute" is a huge advantage over "creepy" - which is probably why all the help available seems to be for children, fading out to zero for those from 30 onwards.

Case in point: In the city where I live, there are several large organisations that provide free and subsidised counselling/therapy to women only. But none for men. I don't want to see the same thing happening with AS. Resources are finite and I think it important that if any services and support become available for Aspies, it is not gender specific.

On the new criteria, I'm not impressed as I think there are so many differences in our traits, I believe there should be *more* categories available, not one big "catch-all" - or one split be gender. To complain that it is unfair to girls misses the point that the whole thing is unfair to everybody. Can't get too fussed about it, though, it is purely an academic exercise anyway. The label they give you is unimportant when there's no help available for any of them anyway.

I completely agree that division of the sexes and services divided that way is extreme and unfair to men. However, what we're looking at here is almost NO females with high intelligence being diagnosed. It's in article after article. The AS boys diagnosed are all much smarter. The chance of getting diagnosed with a high IQ is low if you are female. That's why in this case, clinicians need to know how females mask ASD.

I don't entirely think that's it.

Don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way...I think it might be a case of sexism.

At least....that's how it sounds to me.

If you want me to elaborate further, I will.

Hi whitetiger:

I finally read your blog; there were quite a few things I could relate to, and a few things I wanted to comment on. But first:

are they so stringent about "social reciprocity" that the AS person has to have a total lack of social reciprocity 100 percent of the time? That any conversation is impossible? I mean, for me its very easy to be "socially reciprocal" if I´m having a conversation with someone who shares a special interest, and who has a similar intelligence level and knowledge of that subject. Likewise, it´s easy for me to talk to a doctor when that conversation is structured and the doctor is just asking me questions, which I answer- (go figure!). I thought autism was a "developmental disorder", which means that people can learn things like "reciprocity", though it could be that we´re not at the level of our NT peers. But how can someone really rate this? I think they would have to be with us 100% of the time to see our lapses.

I agree with what you said in the blog, that girls are really pressured to be socially adept- (as well as to have "empathy"). I was a child before the age of AS diagnosis, but as soon as it was discovered, in Nursery School, that I didn´t want to/couldn´t interact with the other kids, my parents made a point of "training me" and putting me in social situations. As a child, I thought my social lapses were due to lack of intelligence- nobody else seemed to have them, after all- and, in an effort to boost my own self esteem I guess, I felt it was imperative to pretend and cover up my lapses, copy and follow along. I remember the pressure was great. As an older person, I have spent years reading and studying social situations, just to get a better grasp on things....and as self preservation, I guess. I think if I had been a boy, my parents might have let me be. It seems that young boys are allowed to be independent, asocial, or study on their own; people don´t question right away "what´s wrong with him?"

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t think it´s easier to be a male with AS. I just think it´s clear that the world treats girls and boys differently, so, likewise, girls and boys are going to react differently to their environment. It seems therefore clear to me that girls and women are going to present differently than boys and men; however, I notice NTs don´t always take these things into consideration. I think many of them are less likely to "notice" differences in socialization, as they don´t tend to analyze these things as much.

In the blog, I could really relate to the "people watching"- (i.e., paying attention to how people listened to one another). I learned a lot by watching people, and as I was often alone, I had plenty of time to do it! I learned how to fake empathy. Of course, I had no idea that that was what I was doing, as I didn´t realize that there are some people in the world who can "feel other people´s feelings". I just knew that when people were upset, they accused me of not caring about them. If I said I was sorry for their predicament, they would say "you don´t look sorry"-or- "you don´t sound sorry". I deduced that I had to "look sorry" and "sound sorry", so I watched what other people did. I discovered that I had to crinkle my forehead, and make my voice sound quiet and solemn. I wonder how many other girls and women did this? Would these people not get a diagnosis because they show "too much empathy"?

I could also really relate to the lack of fashion part of the blog. My Mom used to dress me in dresses, and I was eventually teased horribly for this. Unfortunately, even when I was teased, my Mom still wouldn´t buy me a pair of jeans! I used to wear trousers under my dress, complaining that it was too cold, and I would take off my pants when I got to school. I never did. I felt torn, having to "satisfy" my Mom on the one hand, and the kids on the other hand, so I wouldn´t get teased. Whereas, before all this happened, I didn´t give 2 hoots what I wore.

Well, I´ve monologued on here, sorry, probably totally boring. Special interest alert!

I thought it was pretty good, it gave many different examples of a lack of social reciprocity. I think it´s important to have many examples like that, as these problems manifest in different ways, in different people, and may not manifest in all ways in one person. This is geared more to young people, as was mentioned already.

Was it written somewhere what the new diagnostic criteria are? Somehow I missed that, sorry. If they are making it more difficult for people to get diagnosed, then I can assure you it probably has to do with money. This would be typical, making it more difficult for people to get benefits.

I agree that it would be better to have more categories and subcategories, rather than lumping it into all one thing. I´ve even wondered if there are many different types of light autism that haven´t been "labeled" yet. And it does seem unfair that no one seems that interested in studying AS in females....

I agree with you that ASD girls don't have it worse than ASD guys. The only way it's harder for higher functioning girls is that we don't get helpful services as often. That's something I want to see changed.

I found a questionnaire online on social reciprocity (posted a link in one of my posts above) that described what at least one organization thought that meant. The problem is, it wasn't official, made by clinicians for clinicians.

Does "lack of social reciprocity" mean a total lack, absense of completely? If a restaurant says they have a lack of cheese, I wouldn't think that meant they had a little bit of cheese. Does that make sense? It's just too undefined and I seriously doubt that the coming definition will help girls unless we petition that they consider us.

As is, higher functioning girls are not being diagnosed. People are looking at the stats now and scratching their heads, asking why there are more intelligent AS boys than girls. Some are theorizing it's that they don't know how to identify it in more intelligent girls.

I think one reason this is a problem is something you pretty much said in a recent post, if I understood it properly: that they are looking rigidly for external signs of AS, rather than knowing what the internal processes are. And in girls, they don´t really know what they´re looking for. The problem is, the NTs who are doing the diagnosing don´t know how to get into the mind of an autistic person, so they rely on what they see externally. And they don´t seem to be willing to make changes to the original system if they find something that doesn´t "fit" with their current view.

It seems pretty clear that females are being overlooked. I´ve heard many stories here on WP about women trying to get a diagnosis, people who sound like pretty clear cut cases to me. It sounds like, even when the traits basically fit, doctors are still reluctant to diagnose it women- I´m not sure why.

Are they really scratching their heads?

AS is not my special interest, but from the reading I have done on autism, this pattern of autistic males having higher IQs when compared to autistic females is widely attested to in clinical studies.

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that AS follows the same pattern?

No, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that AS girls are on the whole less intelligent than boys. It's just not likely. Since it is widely known that we mask social deficits, it makes sense that more intelligent girls are not being identified.

I just don't think it's as straightforward as 'high intelligence equals the ability to mask deficits'. I say this as a female who has been professionally diagnosed with AS, who has been formally diagnosed as having a high IQ and who lacks the ability to 'mask' my problems.

I suspect there are quite a few professionally diagnosed women on this forum who are above average in terms of IQ, yet lack the ability to 'mask' their AS.

I was in gifted classes and know a good number of highly intelligent AS women. I don't think those statistics you're referring to about AS women being less intelligent than men are real.

Last edited by TheHaywire on 30 Jun 2010, 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think it depends on the personality style of the female. Many females learn to mask it, they often can be shy and quiet, so just sort of try not to rock the boat. Some try and imitate NT traits, like an actor. Some are fortunate enough to get social skills help in childhood from parents or peers or a formal social skills training.

There are some girls who can never get it right though I am one of them.

Edited: I really can't be bothered anymore...