Aspies to be demoted to Autistics.
btbnnyr
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10 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm
cyberdad wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I've enjoyed arguing factual issues at times with the Op of this topic; his suggestion is described in a blunt manner, but he's far from alone in that sentiment that has been expressed strongly and publicly on NPR by a very prominent director of a self-advocacy organization that I won't name here. And arguably more offensively. Hint: it's not Ari Ne'eman. .
Yes I think there will continue to be considerable opposition to the subsuming of Aspergers into the ASD spectrum. There is of course some academic evidence based arguments from the Yale Autism research unit which continue to devote time to the notion Aspergers can be demonstrated to be a seperate diagnosis.
For the study showing that 80% of people with AS had the NVLD ability profile that clearly distinguished AS from HFA, the researchers recruited a very specific population of people with AS, meeting strictest AS criteria and not meeting autism criteria. People with AS who could also be diagnosed with autism were not included. Delay in motor skills was required. All-absorbing interest was required. This screening process created a specific subgroup of people with AS who were most likely to have the NVLD ability profile. This specific subgroup was then used to represent the AS population as a whole and compared to an HFA subgroup that had met ICD-10 autism criteria. The result was that 18 of 21 people in this specific subgroup had the NVLD profile, and the conclusion was that 80% of people with AS had the NVLD profile.
10 Dec 2012, 4:30 pm
aghogday wrote:
Asperger's overall criteria from the DSMIV fit Hans Asperger's original description of what he described as "autistic psychopathy", except there were only 3 basic criterion elements required. The decision to call it Asperger's syndrome was in differentiation of another description previously identified by Kanner, "autistic disturbances of affective contact", eventually defined and described as autistic disorder
[...]
This new Autistic Spectrum Disorder more closely reflects what Asperger's described than what Kanner described per Kanner's "autistic disturbance of affective contact" vs. Asperger's "Autistic psychopathy". The main factor that differentiated the actual bodies of work in case studies was the absence of the severity of deficit in the development of language per Kanner's case studies, which has now been removed from the new Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
[...]
Autistic Disorder could have just as easily have been called Kanner's syndrome, which some do still refer to it as Kanner's autism. Per that analogy, technically per basic criteria, this revision is more of Han's Asperger's autistic spectrum disorder than Leo Kanner's autistic spectrum disorder.
[...]
There are some people whose children are more severely impacted by what Kanner described that have complained that autistic disorder is what has gone away and Asperger's syndrome is, in effect, what is staying per the criteria that actually remains. They have a good point, it's interesting that not many people have picked up on it, because the focus has been on the labels for some instead of the actual changes in criteria of the current Autistic Disorder vs.Asperger's Disorder.
[...]
This new Autistic Spectrum Disorder more closely reflects what Asperger's described than what Kanner described per Kanner's "autistic disturbance of affective contact" vs. Asperger's "Autistic psychopathy". The main factor that differentiated the actual bodies of work in case studies was the absence of the severity of deficit in the development of language per Kanner's case studies, which has now been removed from the new Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
[...]
Autistic Disorder could have just as easily have been called Kanner's syndrome, which some do still refer to it as Kanner's autism. Per that analogy, technically per basic criteria, this revision is more of Han's Asperger's autistic spectrum disorder than Leo Kanner's autistic spectrum disorder.
[...]
There are some people whose children are more severely impacted by what Kanner described that have complained that autistic disorder is what has gone away and Asperger's syndrome is, in effect, what is staying per the criteria that actually remains. They have a good point, it's interesting that not many people have picked up on it, because the focus has been on the labels for some instead of the actual changes in criteria of the current Autistic Disorder vs.Asperger's Disorder.
Have you ever actually read what Kanner wrote? 11 of the 12 people he described were "high functioning", and comparable to the people who Asperger described. Only 1 of the the initial 12 people he described was non-verbal at the age he was working with them. His initial work was not on the people that are consider stereotypical autism now.
Some of his subjects, depending on where they diagnosed, if they were diagnosed now, would likely have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, not classic autism, actually.
Sure, some people think of stereotypical classic autism as Kanner's autism. That does not mean that what Kanner wrote actually matches that.
Also, what Asperger wrote doesn't actually match with the DSM-IV description of Asperger's Syndrome well. That's actually why I only call myself Autistic and don't identify with my Asperger's diagnosis. I fit Asperger's description better, and the Gillberg criteria better (which is the one that actually matches Asperger's description best), but don't fit the DSM-IV description particularly better than just being autistic in general.
10 Dec 2012, 4:48 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaY_nCUNDk[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S35NDMuoJ4[/youtube]Basicly AS is jut another way of saying you have HFA! So if AS is to be dropped it will be considered ASD or HFA *which is in my opinion the same thing*
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10 Dec 2012, 9:15 pm
Tuttle wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Asperger's overall criteria from the DSMIV fit Hans Asperger's original description of what he described as "autistic psychopathy", except there were only 3 basic criterion elements required. The decision to call it Asperger's syndrome was in differentiation of another description previously identified by Kanner, "autistic disturbances of affective contact", eventually defined and described as autistic disorder
[...]
This new Autistic Spectrum Disorder more closely reflects what Asperger's described than what Kanner described per Kanner's "autistic disturbance of affective contact" vs. Asperger's "Autistic psychopathy". The main factor that differentiated the actual bodies of work in case studies was the absence of the severity of deficit in the development of language per Kanner's case studies, which has now been removed from the new Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
[...]
Autistic Disorder could have just as easily have been called Kanner's syndrome, which some do still refer to it as Kanner's autism. Per that analogy, technically per basic criteria, this revision is more of Han's Asperger's autistic spectrum disorder than Leo Kanner's autistic spectrum disorder.
[...]
There are some people whose children are more severely impacted by what Kanner described that have complained that autistic disorder is what has gone away and Asperger's syndrome is, in effect, what is staying per the criteria that actually remains. They have a good point, it's interesting that not many people have picked up on it, because the focus has been on the labels for some instead of the actual changes in criteria of the current Autistic Disorder vs.Asperger's Disorder.
[...]
This new Autistic Spectrum Disorder more closely reflects what Asperger's described than what Kanner described per Kanner's "autistic disturbance of affective contact" vs. Asperger's "Autistic psychopathy". The main factor that differentiated the actual bodies of work in case studies was the absence of the severity of deficit in the development of language per Kanner's case studies, which has now been removed from the new Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
[...]
Autistic Disorder could have just as easily have been called Kanner's syndrome, which some do still refer to it as Kanner's autism. Per that analogy, technically per basic criteria, this revision is more of Han's Asperger's autistic spectrum disorder than Leo Kanner's autistic spectrum disorder.
[...]
There are some people whose children are more severely impacted by what Kanner described that have complained that autistic disorder is what has gone away and Asperger's syndrome is, in effect, what is staying per the criteria that actually remains. They have a good point, it's interesting that not many people have picked up on it, because the focus has been on the labels for some instead of the actual changes in criteria of the current Autistic Disorder vs.Asperger's Disorder.
Have you ever actually read what Kanner wrote? 11 of the 12 people he described were "high functioning", and comparable to the people who Asperger described. Only 1 of the the initial 12 people he described was non-verbal at the age he was working with them. His initial work was not on the people that are consider stereotypical autism now.
Some of his subjects, depending on where they diagnosed, if they were diagnosed now, would likely have been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, not classic autism, actually.
Sure, some people think of stereotypical classic autism as Kanner's autism. That does not mean that what Kanner wrote actually matches that.
Also, what Asperger wrote doesn't actually match with the DSM-IV description of Asperger's Syndrome well. That's actually why I only call myself Autistic and don't identify with my Asperger's diagnosis. I fit Asperger's description better, and the Gillberg criteria better (which is the one that actually matches Asperger's description best), but don't fit the DSM-IV description particularly better than just being autistic in general.
Yes, I have read it and was not suggesting that all of Kanner's case studies were non-verbal, but it is the characteristic that historically has set the two diagnoses apart along with intellectual disability. It could have been reasonable to call it a co-morbid condition at the time of Kanner's work, but it was continued to be identified an optional requirement to be diagnosed with Autistic Disorder. Those with that condition are more obviously impacted and identified as severely impacted, so this is where most of the attention has been focused. That's not surprising.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/01/a-spectrum-of-disorders-html
Quote:
Asperger documented a condition in boys that he termed “autistic psychopathy,” characterized by “a lack of empathy, little ability to form friendships, one-sided conversation, intense absorption in a special interest, and clumsy movements.” His patients differed from Kanner’s in that they did not exhibit developmental delays in language or cognition
http://www.bbbautism.com/asp_gillberg.htm
I agree that the Gillberg criteria is a better match than the DSMIV criteria or the DSM5 criteria, as it makes the core symptoms Aspergers described as mandatory requirements, rather than the loose requirements of the DSMIV, where an individual could be diagnosed without impairments in forming friendships or without impairments in non-verbal communication. It actually better describes what Kanner and Asperger's described as a whole, than what the DSM5 criteria describes, as the Gillberg criteria includes language development delays for Asperger's. The improvement in the DSM5 is it makes more of Asperger's described core symptoms mandatory.
As far as I am concerned the Gilberg criteria should have been the standard for the DSMIV, from the get go, except there appeared to be an intent on separating the two disorders at that time, over requiring more of what Aspergers originally described in his case studies.
auntblabby
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10 Dec 2012, 9:22 pm
Verdandi wrote:
Why would an honorable discharge preclude that?
because aspies lately are not welcome in the army, and if sent to army shrink for dx and found out, are discharged. so the fact that i was sent to army shrink who said i wasn't "bad enough" to be immediately discharged [before the end of my enlistment], is proof that i am too high functioning for bennies.
Verdandi
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10 Dec 2012, 9:46 pm
auntblabby wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Why would an honorable discharge preclude that?
because aspies lately are not welcome in the army, and if sent to army shrink for dx and found out, are discharged. so the fact that i was sent to army shrink who said i wasn't "bad enough" to be immediately discharged [before the end of my enlistment], is proof that i am too high functioning for bennies.
Hmm. That would assume a static level of functioning that never changes due to age or possible comorbids though, wouldn't it?
auntblabby
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10 Dec 2012, 9:56 pm
Verdandi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Why would an honorable discharge preclude that?
because aspies lately are not welcome in the army, and if sent to army shrink for dx and found out, are discharged. so the fact that i was sent to army shrink who said i wasn't "bad enough" to be immediately discharged [before the end of my enlistment], is proof that i am too high functioning for bennies.
Hmm. That would assume a static level of functioning that never changes due to age or possible comorbids though, wouldn't it?
all i know is that the DSHS guidelines seem too steep for me to negotiate.
10 Dec 2012, 9:58 pm
Just a note on differentiation from Kanner's and Asperger's:
Apart from cognitive delays (including verbal), it's always been the different manifestation of social functioning with some differences in repetitive behaviors:
Kanner's:
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
I think the DSM-V does a well enough job in including both of these; the DSM-IV-TR did too. A common mistake is for people to think each criterion of the DSM-IV-TR for AS and AD, though worded the same, mean the same things; it doesn't, and the DSM-IV-TR states it in the full text, which most people seem to overlook (which means they aren't using it properly).
Obviously, the two disorders above have been shown to have overlap in symptoms, with some crossing over into the other population (usually from Kanner's to Asperger's); it's unknown if this is because these people are just a "milder" form of Kanner's, or Asperger's and Kanner's are on the same continuum (the spectrum), so symptoms can show up in both.
Last edited by Dillogic on 10 Dec 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
10 Dec 2012, 9:59 pm
aghogday wrote:
Yes, I have read it and was not suggesting that all of Kanner's case studies were non-verbal, but it is the characteristic that historically has set the two diagnoses apart along with intellectual disability. It could have been reasonable to call it a co-morbid condition at the time of Kanner's work, but it was continued to be identified an optional requirement to be diagnosed with Autistic Disorder. Those with that condition are more obviously impacted and identified as severely impacted, so this is where most of the attention has been focused. That's not surprising.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/01/a-spectrum-of-disorders-html
http://harvardmagazine.com/2008/01/a-spectrum-of-disorders-html
What I'm saying is some of that is from after Kanner's work. Kanner's work described people who were "high functioning" as a whole. When people went and looked at it later, is when it was applied to people who were "low functioning", and was focused there, and the people Kanner had actually focused his work on (not having left out the other people, but most he'd described, and most of what he'd done), weren't being diagnosed, they were focusing on people who were "lower functioning".
It's called Kanner's autism, but its not Kanner's. Kanner's autism, what he actually described, is actually much closer to what Asperger described - not the same, but much more similar.
What neither of them described are actually what their syndromes are now. They were different, but they were far more similar than people really want to admit.
The DSM-5 actually is possibly closer to what both of them described. I still prefer the Gillberg criteria for a lot of us though (including some people who have classic autism), and think we can do better than the DSM-5.
Yes, people who have someone who is non-verbal, rocking in a corner, melting down regularly, and they can't find any way to get through to the child, will be upset by the change, but that isn't what Kanner described, even if that's what people call "Kanner's autism"
Verdandi
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10 Dec 2012, 10:42 pm
auntblabby wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Why would an honorable discharge preclude that?
because aspies lately are not welcome in the army, and if sent to army shrink for dx and found out, are discharged. so the fact that i was sent to army shrink who said i wasn't "bad enough" to be immediately discharged [before the end of my enlistment], is proof that i am too high functioning for bennies.
Hmm. That would assume a static level of functioning that never changes due to age or possible comorbids though, wouldn't it?
all i know is that the DSHS guidelines seem too steep for me to negotiate.
Ah, that makes sense. They tightened them up considerably after I mentioned their program to you a couple of years ago, too. When I first got on, it was much easier to get on disability lifeline. Now DL no longer exists, and a similar program exists strictly for people who are deemed disabled enough to get on social security, with the understanding that the SSI/SSDI lump sum payments will be used to pay back what the state paid them.
Verdandi
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10 Dec 2012, 10:43 pm
Dillogic wrote:
Just a note on differentiation from Kanner's and Asperger's:
Apart from cognitive delays (including verbal), it's always been the different manifestation of social functioning with some differences in repetitive behaviors:
Kanner's:
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
I think the DSM-V does a well enough job in including both of these; the DSM-IV-TR did too. A common mistake is for people to think each criterion of the DSM-IV-TR for AS and AD, though worded the same, mean the same things; it doesn't, and the DSM-IV-TR states it in the full text, which most people seem to overlook (which means they aren't using it properly).
Obviously, the two disorders above have been shown to have overlap in symptoms, with some crossing over into the other population (usually from Kanner's to Asperger's); it's unknown if this is because these people are just a "milder" form of Kanner's, or Asperger's and Kanner's are on the same continuum (the spectrum), so symptoms can show up in both.
Apart from cognitive delays (including verbal), it's always been the different manifestation of social functioning with some differences in repetitive behaviors:
Kanner's:
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
I think the DSM-V does a well enough job in including both of these; the DSM-IV-TR did too. A common mistake is for people to think each criterion of the DSM-IV-TR for AS and AD, though worded the same, mean the same things; it doesn't, and the DSM-IV-TR states it in the full text, which most people seem to overlook (which means they aren't using it properly).
Obviously, the two disorders above have been shown to have overlap in symptoms, with some crossing over into the other population (usually from Kanner's to Asperger's); it's unknown if this is because these people are just a "milder" form of Kanner's, or Asperger's and Kanner's are on the same continuum (the spectrum), so symptoms can show up in both.
By your description I should have been diagnosed with autism.
10 Dec 2012, 10:59 pm
Dillogic wrote:
Kanner's:
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
Someone who:
-Is indifferent to others
-Doesn't initiate social contact, or lecture at all
-Responds to social contact mostly normally
-Has severe sensory dysfunction
-Focuses on objects
-Has special interests
-Is dependent on others to make changes
Which category would this be? Because its clearly closer to "Kanner's" in your definition.
(Gillberg criteria fits though, which is based on Asperger's writing)
Verdandi
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10 Dec 2012, 11:12 pm
Tuttle wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
Kanner's:
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
-Indifferent to others ("aloof")
-Repetitive behaviors tend to be focusing on parts of objects, marked distress to change, and sensory dysfunction
Aspergers:
-Inappropriate one sided approach to others (lecturing, also called "active but odd")
-Repetitive behaviors are the all-absorbing interest
Someone who:
-Is indifferent to others
-Doesn't initiate social contact, or lecture at all
-Responds to social contact mostly normally
-Has severe sensory dysfunction
-Focuses on objects
-Has special interests
-Is dependent on others to make changes
Which category would this be? Because its clearly closer to "Kanner's" in your definition.
(Gillberg criteria fits though, which is based on Asperger's writing)
I didn't think to make a list like this, but the main difference is that I lecture, and I do initiate some social contact. Still much closer to Dillogic's "Kanner's" definition.
10 Dec 2012, 11:25 pm
Tuttle wrote:
Which category would this be? Because its clearly closer to "Kanner's" in your definition.
That's the question. Though it's not my definition, it's from Lorna Wing's paper on Asperger's (the seminal English one that AS as we know it, now and previously is and was based on), the DSM-IV-TR (expanded text), Kanner's, Hans, and far too many others (which just repeat all of this).
There's a group of people who overlap on this Kanner's-Asperger's border (DSM-IV-TR). "Difficult to distinguish [between the two] in some individuals", is how it's put. Enter how it's similar to individuals with AS in many ways, and there the spectrum goes.
I think Gillberg's Criteria is a decent set of criteria for these people (which would include me), especially when applied to them as adults. It goes without saying that this set can also be applied to those with AS too.
The DSM-V really just merges the DSM-IV-TR into one, which would also work.
10 Dec 2012, 11:31 pm
I do sorta initiate social contact with my boyfriend and whether I do to others depends on definition (but only very specific others), I do end up lecturing to him at times, but rarely. But to anyone else, I don't, and that's more recent, I didn't do those when I was younger. That's why I was trying to not label that as exactly me, because I'm slightly not that list. But I'm very close to that list, and that list was more me when I was younger.
Really, I'm passive, not aloof or active but odd. Friends of my family were asking me about the DSM-5 changes and I ended up discussing Aloof/Passive/Active-but-odd/Formal-and-stilted, and they completely agreed with me being passive, and they've known me from birth. I act completely different around people I know well than people I know well, completely different when its direct questions than general questions, and don't initiate stuff well. With my boyfriend I end up trying to initiate conversations, and failing miserably (and turning to only talking about special interests until he's annoyed at them because I don't know what else to do).
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