Aspergers and victim complex

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I agree with this; however, some people, due to their own neurological wiring and life experiences, are not able to help people who have hit rock bottom.

Personally, the best I have to offer is practical advice. If someone can't make use of it, there's nothing more I can do.

If I can't think of anything practical, I keep my mouth shut.

This view is born out of the need for less than respectable people to excuse their behavior, when treating other people like sh*t for being different or complaining about real problems. The kind of people that use this view as a means of selling their own version of reality, only do so, so that they can be as idiotic and nasty as they want, without being forced to deal with the consequences that result from their own actions.

You're free to believe whatever you want, but if you really look at the origins of this belief, you'll find quite simply that there are one of these things at play:
1. It was made to help people accept who they are
2. It was made as a means to tell people to "get over it".
-or-
3. It was created as a means to sell disinformation about ASD's/etc. so that it would result in number 2.

So imagine: Reincarnation and the afterlife aren't real. Now, imagine that everyone thus gets one shot at life, no matter their abilities, their talents, their skin color, their gender, their orientation, etc.

Now imagine that people in this one shot at life live in horrific circumstances - abusive relationships for example, or violently oppressive systems that rob people of their self-determination to various degrees. That people are killed in genocides, in war, are murdered in the heat of emotion or in cold blood. Are murdered just because of who and what they are and no other reason.

Imagine the cost, the incalculable harm done to people, robbing them of their one chance to live an amazing or at least contented life.

There's no value in assuming that we chose to live any particular life. That's completely unfalsifiable and not remotely relevant. It's how we treat each other while we're here, while we're alive. That's what matters, no matter what may or may not happen when we die.

There is value in accepting the possibility of an afterlife or reincarnation - that's the point of Pascal's Wager. I prefer a combination of the above and Pascal's Wager. On the one hand, if there is an afterlife, you don't really want to get there having nothing to show for it but petty cruelty and violence. On the other hand, if there isn't an afterlife (or reincarnation, etc) it is the height of cruelty and hatred to deny people the ability to live a fulfilling life for their one go at it.

If one's religious beliefs justify hatred and oppression, or if one's religious beliefs rely on people being responsible for choosing their life circumstances before they're even born...that's just an abdication of responsibility for what happens in this world - the real world.

Last edited by Verdandi on 25 Apr 2014, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your examples don't denote a victim complex.

A victim complex is generally a delusional belief that you're being victimized, even though you're not.

Being made fun of because you're a nerd constitutes real victimizing, albeit a rather tame one (depending on its severity, of course. There's been plenty of people who've killed themselves due to bullying or have had mental problems from such).

This is one of those things that I know intellectually, but still have a hard time dealing with, as I find constant negativity difficult to be around, in a teeth gritting need to get away from it sort of way. I'm sure my AS does not help, as I don't know how to comfort/console people, and offering solutions is a much more natural thing for me to do, causes me to become aggravated when they're all dismissed out of hand.

I was one of the friendless people when I've first joined WP and I had a lot of things to vent about. I vented about one thing or another twice a week on average. I didn't really have any friends in real life until 2007. Nowadays, I like to help my fellow members as much as possible. I still vent about some fears that I have. Having a social network works.

That would make more sense if life was a science fiction/fantasy story. It is not. Your body is not a host to some parasitic advanced being.

I'm stealing that idea for that time where I'm ever able to sit down and write a sci-fi story in full though.

Re: the whole refusing to change thing.

Sorry if this point has been raised but I have very little focus ability tonight so I'm just skimming through the posts.

Learned helplessness is not a victim complex. When you struggle a lot with your symptoms or situation and you find there is no escape then you basically just give up because you've lost all hope that you can get better.

For me it happened with my anxiety. I have severe GAD and I did once reach out and ask for help but it involved me having to face more anxiety and I just couldn't do it. I literally could not make the call to find another doctor and go to a new doctor's office. That type of change gives me crippling anxiety. The type of anxiety that gives me seizures which needless to say makes me immobile and less able to go see a doctor on my own.
The way I reached out for help made it worse. People don't respond how I would think they would when you talk about wanting to do self-harm. To me it sounded like that meant I needed immediate medical attention, but then someone just took it personally. Then I further screwed it up by comparing suicidal attempts verses people who have actually killed themselves. Something about how people react differently. I actually thought I was bringing up some good points. At least that person has forgiven me about it and we both admit to being a bit selfish about the whole ordeal.

I actually do feel nervous about talking about the negative parts of my bipolar because I won't seek treatment for it because of the little positive I get. Mania is motivation and focus to me. Without that I would struggle to get basic tasks done. Maybe. But I don't want to risk losing that.

I talk about this stuff so matter of factly that it hardly sounds like I'm whinging.

Then I can get so frustrated with how people treat me that I'll refuse to comply with them. It might last a few days and it's like learned helplessness if defiance was a symptom of it. It really comes out of the stress and exhaustion at trying to do better by working so hard to manage your symptoms.

Now when speaking about people that refuse to listen to suggestions of help, well when a person has anxiety these kinds of suggestions will cause a great deal of panic in them that often comes out as anger. So, they're just seen as brushing someone off rather than being in such severe mental anguish that they think they are unable to carry out those steps to ameliorate their symptoms.

For most of us with autism who have that common fear of change symptom, even good change that will lead to recovery of mental health issues (or some other problem in our lives) will be scary.

I'm unemployed, depending on family, with a plethora of mental health issues as well as some physical ones and epilepsy which I can't see ever getting better because I'm too damn scared to see a doctor on my own cept for my psyche who I once said I was suicidal to who disregarded it, so now I hardly trust doctors. There's more to it than that. At night when I go to bed I have severe depressive thoughts that lead to suicidal ideation, but then I just power through the next day.

The people who say I chose all that can go f**k themselves. I don't even live in the city I want to live in. And I want a bigger dog. Actually, my emotions make all my choices for me. Even when I know maybe I shouldn't be doing something because how it might just blow up in my face later, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

And that's pretty much all I feel capable of saying now.

Yes, exactly.

I really don't go for this whole 'some being chooses how your life will turn out' or whatever it is. It kind of reminds me of the Ga'ould symbiote on Stargate SG-1. Love that show.

However, I do like to believe that everything happens to me for a reason. Sometimes I can acknowledge this is to keep me calm about my mental health issues and living in a less than desirable situation. Other times, it comes with more grandiosity and I can become quite delusional about it. I do start thinking a higher power is guiding my path and I pick up little hints along the way. This usually happens when I'm manic though and if during this time I picked up a spiritual or new age book I could really take my mind into new unexplored realms.

And I'm a Christian-ish and hardly force my beliefs onto people. I am good at getting people to change their perceptions on things like political leanings, or how they see mental disorder and even get them into new music. I'm good at converting people but never do it in a religious way.

From what I've seen you certainly don't have a victim complex. Venting isn't the same thing as that. We all need to vent because it helps. It really does. I've seen you vent about things that you can't do anything about that upset you and then you let it go. I've seen you vent about things that upset you that you can do something about and resolve to try to fix them. That isn't the same thing at all. I vent and whine an aweful lot about things I can fix and things I can't fix. That's ok too. I'm aware of doing it and I don't think that evrybody is out to get me because of my AS, or because of my brown hair or because I have freakishly large clown feet, etc.

Here is an example that I have completely made up, but it's pretty similar to some of the posts that the OP was talking about.

Week 1.

OP: I can't get a date because of my AS. It's not fair. I'll die alone.
Poster 1: What exactly is going on?
OP: I don't shower. I can't. People say I stink.
Poster 1: Oh. Yeah I can see that. You should work on hygeine.
Poster 2: You could try washing off in the sink with a washcloth. You know, so you smell better.
Poster 3: Also, once you wash the areas that produce the smells, you could try some of the lighter scents and deoderants.
OP: I can't shower, I told you.
Poster 1: We aren't talking about showers. We are talking about ways to fix your problem
OP: My problem is that I have AS. Nobody will date an aspie


Week 8.

OP: I hate people. They won't date me and call me smelly Nelly.
Poster 76: I really have to support other suggestions you have gotten. Just wash off in the sink.
Poster 77: Nobody has yet suggested just a bath tub. Or even soaking in a hot tub. Could you do that?
Poster 78: Swimming could work. Do you go swimming? It's not a bath but it will keep you somewhat clean and not smelly.
OP: I told you. They hate me. I stink. I can't shower. I hate the shower. It's because of AS. I can't shower. They should just ignore it. I hate perfumes but would be willing to date someone who wore one.


Week 30:

OP: I can't get a date because I have AS. Just because I can't shower doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It's because of the jocks who shower after gym.
Poster 193: Can't shower or won't shower? I hate to shower too but I do it because if I don't I stink.
OP: I'm reporting you for bullying.


Week 196:

OP: I can't get a date because of AS. I hate AS.
Poster 1836: You are a victim of ablism. Studies show that people with AS are less likely to have dates. <link> <link> <link>
Poster 1837: Yes, I'd see a lawyer. Those people are not worth your time!
Poster 1836 again: Throughout history we have been discriminated against and even killed. This is their way of killing you. By not allowing you the right to a date.
Poster 1838: You're the guy who won't shower right? Thats why you don't have a date. For the love of God, shower or shut up whining about it.
OP: I can't shower. I hate it and I cry in there. I have AS. We can't shower. If you weren't such a bully and a pharisee you would know that. MODS!


That kind of thing. Except apply it to every aspect of somebodys life. You see it here quite often, but not by everybody or even most people. You certainly don't do it.

I empathize with all people. Sometimes I get mad because I wasn't diagnosed and people assumed I was doing things on purpose, so that's different. However, I know a lot of people who aren't autistic and have other problems.

OliveOil, that was hilarious. The last example had me laughing hard. Although, I feel kind of bad because I bet some people have sensory problems so bad that they can't wash up that much. I know my husband used to not wear deodorant when he didn't "have to" (his words). I explained that I had sensitivity to smell, and we found a deodorant that didn't make his sensory problems go all nuts.


PS-For people who can't shower, there are foaming no-rinse soaps for the elderly that you can buy and use. They even work as a shampoo. There is also a deodorant brand called Crystal. It pretty much is just sodium, water, and a few essential oils.

Those are very good examples that you've shown me. I've seen quite a few people like this around here, but I won't mention names.

I help when I can, but, the way I see it, it's not my responsibility to put myself out dealing with other people's issues. I dumped one particular friend IRL because she was a constant ball of negativity (she had plenty of other issues too, but this one stood out as one of the biggest). I helped as much as I could, but there comes a point where you have to walk away and let people figure things out for themselves.

I've learned not to get aggravated when people refuse to listen to sense.

OliveOilMom, yes what you wrote was wonderful. And this is serious stuff, aside form being funny, which shows how good parody can be used to get a point across. It is a form of mental picture making that can be more involving and also point out various subtleties, though of course if a person gets identified and goes into a reactive mode, he may not grasp the nuance. There is this saying:

https://www.google.com/#q=indian+saying ... understand

it is interesting how many different versions there are of this...and here is a link to a book that was very popular in the sixties and has been very helpful in understanding certain social phenonema:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Peop ... %28book%29

The first game he identified when he began to develop his theory he called "Yes-but," I think this touches on a certain aspect of what is going on here, and will write about this soon, but for now:.

http://www.thenew-renaissanceman.com/mind-games-2.html

and anyone interested can google "yes but game."

Personally I don't think playing this Yes-but game is really overtly harmful to anyone who gets hooks into it, except it is a waste of time and energy and does deflect conversation from serious topics, but people can just avoid that kind of thread or learn how to reply in this kind of situation in the way Berne has suggested, so as not to get hooked (and I think it would benefit this system if do learn that)....

But what you have given an illustration of below is imo a much more serious thing and an entirely different kind of situation as community can form around this kind of interaction involving all kinds of enabling and censorship of speech. This is not to suggest that trying to help someone find actual solutions is enabling or that being cruel to vulnerable people as in actual bullying should be tolerated on this forum.

That is a great example. I have always used my ex's trench coat as an example and comparing it to getting on a bumper boat and complaining about getting wet and bumped about people who complain and do nothing about it.

It's actually possible for someone to, in effect, not be able to shower because of AS, depression, fatigue, etc. If that person still wants some human contact despite having hygiene issues... of course he would, everyone wants that. It's the type of thing where a person just wants someone to tell him how much it must suck, just wants to be comforted. Practical advice might actually be the last thing that he would actually be able to incorporate into his life, it might be that he needs to take care of his psychological self first before he can take care of his physical self.

littlebee, I do have a qualm with that link on supposed "mind games".

It states: "At face value, this interaction is pretty straightforward. It consists of a man or woman asking for suggestions, but then rejecting each one of them as they are offered."
However, in the example, the person did NOT ask for advice. Neither did the hypothetical people in OliveOil's examples. I think people get confused about rants vs advice. There may or may not be a point where a person just doesn't want to hear about the same issue all of the time when the person can't solve it. Noticed I say can't, because I find a lot of problems are complex and don't involve just sheer will power. Obviously, if that was the case, a lot of people would just simply solve their issues.

What people are doing is ranting and they want to be listened to. Sometimes, giving advice is extremely unsympathetic, especially if a person doesn't ask for it. The person then perceives it as bullying, because they wanted to be listened to, not told something along the lines of "Well, if you don't do what I say, stop complaining."

The only reason I mention your link is because people used to try that stuff with me. The more I read over this whole post, the more I realized people really enjoy victim blaming or something. I think it's important for us all to keep in perspective we tend to be biased towards what WE experience and how we feel, and don't seem to think how anyone could possibly be different.

Me: Yeah, but I can't solve my issue because...
Other people: Well, you keep saying "yeah, but". If only you put your mind to it (and did what I said).

Mhm. This is a way for people to shift the burden of listening off of themselves and blame a person for their own troubles. It's easier that way. Now, I'm not saying if a person can't change something that people should just deal with it. No, there will be consequences to each action and some can be bad. However, it's nice to feel safe and among people who understand, and that is why people rant here.

I hope this doesn't come across as too...oh, I don't know. Just offensive to you. I wasn't calling you out or anything. I've just had people be extremely impatient with me and insist I can just change my life. Even though I find OliveOil's examples somewhat funny, I can't help but see subtle irony in rejecting the troubles that AS brings as if there are quick fixes.

As I always tell people: A child crying because they can't have a cookie may seem ridiculous to you, but to them, their whole world seems to be falling apart. No matter how insignificant a problem seems, if someone is distressed, it's probably best to take that as real suffering.