The Autisnob

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In my defense, I NEVER claimed you were evil, etc... Who knows? Maybe, if we met personally, we might consider one another quite affable!

As for you accusing Alex of not having AS, I don't think you ever went precisely that far, but you DID come DARN close! You never SAID it, to the best of my knowledge, but you DID STRONGLY imply it.

Not at all. Mw99 took what I said out of context, and then implicated me in his little...whatever it was, it wasn't a logical argument he put forth as there was no logic. If one goes back far enough, you'll actually see me state that I think Alex has AS by viewing his videos, but pointing that out in that thread wasn't needed, as I wasn't on anyone's "side" other than my own.

Everything I say is explicit and to be taken at face value, I don't hide anything behind my words, and I wasn't even thinking of you when I posted my "snob" post a little back. The first was in relation to unnamed people I see who post around here (I just remember the words), and the second was in relation to the people who have AS/HFA that look down upon those who're lower on the spectrum.

Daniel, I totally agree with you here especially about the self-righteous ("I speak for everyone on the spectrum"), high-functioning, self-diagnosed Aspies who slam some of us left and right if we support mainstream groups or don't agree with them, but they themselves don't even have an official diagnosis...and don't get me started that some of these same people have admitted to substance/alcohol abuse right here on this forum. Maybe those things are contributing factors? Did that ever occur to them?

Then, they have the audacity to turn around and call names, insult, accuse others of being trolls when we are good people and are the ones in the trenches of Autism 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, have faced some serious Autism battles that would blow their minds...that include health crises due to Autism, have donated countless dollars to Autism causes, are active in the Autism community and advocates as well. What the hell are they doing for Autism accept preaching online to other Aspies on how they should live their lives and parents on how to raise their Autistic children? They wouldn't dare go out into the offline community with some of this stuff. If someone undiagnosed ever came to one of our support groups and tried to tell others where to get off and what to do, they'd need a police escort out of there. Nobody would put up with it and we've got adult Aspies (with a diagnosis) in our groups as well. They wouldn't tolerate it.

So, I feel both of your examples are indeed examples of snobs here, but it doesn't have to be that way. People can be proud of who they are and accept who they are. I actually dig that about this site. If everyone was having a pity party I wouldn't want to be here. So, it's a plus to me that people are confidant in who they are. But, when you cross that boundary into "superiority" it changes the message and the way I see the messenger. It's not going to make you look better in the eyes of others and if it's something you carry into the workplace and school, it may infact have worse ramifications that you don't expect if you come off as arrogant.

(This is why I shouldn't be allowed near writing sites. We're darn near encouraged to rip out each others' hearts. It tends to transfer over.)

You know, funnily enough, I've always seen you as an elitist and snob. It's not just because you're constantly attacking Daniel (although that annoys me a lot too), but way before then too; before he even came here. I think part of it is the whole capitals things (you do realize that means yelling, don't you?), part of it is you're always saying things that aren't true, and part of it is whole "I know I have AS, but I don't have problems with ___, ___, and ___"; in fact, I don't think I've ever seen you make one post that made me think that you ever showed signs of it.

If you'd stop putting your emotions into other people's words and start improving your reading comprehension (is this becoming an extinct skill among the masses? I swear, so many people seem to have problems with it), it'd go better. It gets boring watching you follow Daniel around and attack just about every post he makes without bothering to understand it in the first place.

Nomad21, do everyone a favor and stick with a statement. You say you don't know him well enough to judge, then you turn around and do exactly that. You were right the first time; you don't know Daniel well enough to make those kind of statements. Furthermore, post titles tend to be misleading, and MW99 was way out of line. If you read the thread, you would have noticed that Daniel never said that, but that the original poster did.

Actually, I just want to point out that I am the one who eats babies. BUT back on topic here. Maybe I am missing your intentions in your posts, it could be a misunderstanding. I didn't mean to offend you. I'm sorry.

Well, you have to realize that, though I didn't use sarcasm AT ALL until like junior high, things like my last job have polluted my way of thinking there. I used to be VERY transparent. I almost pine for the time when I just told the truth even when I knew it would hurt, and took people more at "face value".

If I mistook your intentions, I AM sincerely sorry. It was a lot easier to get where I am than it would ever be to go back.

BTW I didn't get so FULLY cynical until I was into my TWENTIES! My last boss used to play "mind games". He thought he was so smart with that, but just reduced my trust of humanity even more.

Well, I could just as easily fit this description since I'm A) UNDIAGNOSED *gasp of abject horror* .... B) high-functioning and C) self-righteous. I don't speak for everyone. I don't even know what initiated this partial-uproar. But I will toss my tuppence in. Mostly due to the fact I'm feeling a little squirrelly by these terms being thrown around and because it's tax day.




This sounds just a taaaaaaad self-righteous, which really isn't all that surprising given your username. It's also a kick in the chin to anyone who hasn't donated or had a health crisis. Some of us UNDIAGNOSED , high-functioning and self-righteous aspies (Oh, wait, am I allowed to call myself that without having confirmed with some kind of Pharm-industry puppet owning an outdated medical education and initials after their name? ) are PROBABLY not the poster children for classic autism or truly debilitating AS. It's not in our nature to sit at meetings, do Autism walks, volunteer. You are complaining about the very nature of this end of AS, do you not realize that? It's not a cut and dry disorder which is why they call it a spectrum. There's no room for purists, here.




Just taking a blind stab in the dark here, but I'm guessing that UNDIAGNOSED , high-functioning, self-righteous aspies wouldn't typically GO to a support group. Not only because it's not our style to sit around whining, but because of this very hoity-toity attitude toward people who didn't run out and get a label the minute it was officially recognized by people whose opinion means f*ckall to me, figuratively speaking. Now, I understand that having a diagnosis is important if you require services or aid or whatnot, but not everyone on the spectrum DOES. Some aspies who function well on their own and don't want aid or services don't WANT to be discriminated against by prospective employers or be charged sky-high insurance rates. Odd, yes, I know, but stick with me here. Has it crossed your mind that maybe in *these* sorts of cases, a diagnosis would prove a major hindrance in functionality? Oh, but you get the peppy little gilded AS membership card. And that's what's important.

Oh, and by the way, I have autistic children. They're also UNDIAGNOSED . But we function quite fine without our labels.

I'm sorry, but this whole thread is coming off as anti-undiagnosed snobbery. Unless some kind of superior being from the planet aspergius landed in your crops and diagnosed you personally, all of it is subjective. For all you know, the doctor who diagnosed you could have MISdiagnosed. Cauz they NEVER do that!

A couple points in response to a couple different posts I've just seen.

Some people have sort of "been there done that" when it comes to discussions of all the things they have trouble with. And some people (overlapping somewhat) have been forced into stereotypes by other people for a long time, and want to talk about what our lives are really like, not how the "experts" would predict they are like. And some people are just plain tired of the medical community being the end-all and be-all of authority on what their experiences are like.

And all these people might find it more interesting or exciting to discuss where they don't conform to stereotypes than where they do.

I am certain (from having known many autistic people, and also from knowing the self-contradictory nature of many of the stereotypes) that many people who mostly talk about fitting the stereotypes, have major areas of not being stereotypical.

The same person can even do both (talk about one part but not the other) at different phases of self-understanding and developing different areas of interest within the area of autism.

And I don't believe in trashing people who are self-diagnosed. Self-diagnosed doesn't mean a thing about "how autistic" a person is, there are too many other mitigating circumstances about diagnosis for that. It seems like people who are self-diagnosed become the scapegoats for everything wrong or immature done in the autistic community. And that's not fair or realistic.

I don't think it's useful to get into status contests about what a person has or has not been through. Unless you know someone, you don't necessarily know what they've been through.

Not everyone advertises their adversity every time they talk, and not everyone advertises their good deeds either. (Not only that, but not everyone is capable of certain good deeds, such as large amounts of financial contributions. Many autistic people are dirt-poor or close to it.)

I would like to note though that every autistic person lives through autism 24/7. What that means will be different for each person.

I would also like to point out that, given that people without diagnoses cannot get services, they are often the people with years of poverty, starvation, and homelessness behind them.

[url=http://www.autistics.org/library/anon-bio.html"]This woman is one such person[/url]. She trusted me not to blow her off like all the famous "experts" had. I asked her whether she wanted her autobiography published in anonymized form. She said yes. She has severe problems with OCD (leading her into severe destructive compulsions to "punish herself for being bad") and self-care, but the British psychiatric system labeled her antisocial personality (I read a study showing it was a common misdiagnosis there and used most often to keep people out of the system to keep costs down and such and ignore them), so she can't get any help at all, she's effectively blacklisted from getting support. I know someone who came from the same town as her, who works in the psych field, and he said it really is that bad there and everything she's reporting is accurate for that place.

Do you really want to tell someone in her position how wonderful her life is because she's self-diagnosed and therefore has never known hardship?

I get so sick of this stuff, and I don't even know how to describe how sick of it I get.

I know many autistic people from the online communities on a fairly deep level, including both diagnosed and self-diagnosed people. I know what their lives have been like.

I know that telling an autistic person they don't know what it's like to live autism 24/7 strikes me as bizarre.

I know that there are legitimate reasons to criticize organizations, and non-legitimate ones as well. The disability rights movement has a long history of criticizing organizations that are structured in a certain way, and without those critiques some of them would never have been restructured in a better way.

I know that disabled people are always considered selfish and purely self-interested when we stand up for ourselves in certain manners, while non-disabled people who happen to know disabled people in some capacity (whether family, work, whatever) are frequently treated like saints who cannot be questioned (without the questioner being considered bad in some way).

I know that parents, the officially-diagnosed, and those severely disabled, who criticize organizations in the same ways are curiously frequently left out of these, as if by ignoring us we will vanish. If we are mentioned, we're assumed to be non-parents, self-diagnosed, and mildly disabled. And being non-parent, self-diagnosed, and mildly disabled is considered something to look down on for some reason, someone whose opinion doesn't count for as much.

And I know that the situation in the autistic community is a lot more complex than "just a bunch of self-diagnosed people who don't know what they're doing criticizing parents for no reason". It really is.

And it just disturbs me when people draw battle lines across things like this, and disparage those who they seem to think are less valid somehow in their experience of being autistic. And, without understanding the very different worldview that is often behind these critiques (one which isn't governed, for instance, by "if you have really suffered because of any autistic traits then it's obvious you must feel a certain way about autism"), the same old reasons are trotted out, the same old stereotypes about the ones who make it, and no understanding is ever reached about what is actually going on here.

I just have to say don't think the way described in some of the posts recently is productive. I don't think "You haven't been through what I've been through, you haven't done enough for autistic people like I have," is useful, and I don't think it's always accurate either, it's often resting on some pretty big assumptions.

So is this now the part where we all trot out our grievences and try to decides who's life/pain/diagnosis is worse?? I so LOVE this game *retches into your shoes*

Let me save you all the trouble, my life sucks the worst, so let's move on

Yeah, I think a few people might feel that way, because....



As a person, etc... I never attacked him. I just took umbrage with the limited view of AS, etc....



Actually, it is emphasis. It is interesting. I used to NEVER use capitals.(<<<note emphasis?) My first computer had ONLY capitals.(<<<emphasis again...) I was one of the few that actually got a special card to make it display/enter lower case. Anyway, things just evolved such that I now use capitals, and use them for emphasis. Habits die hard. I wonder how people would react if I still wrote in lower case.



Like what?



You must have me confused with someone else. I have OFTEN said I had a lot of symptoms:

Some things I have in common with some with AS.
1. Spoke early.
2. Learned to read by myself early.
3. Was/am OBSESSED with interests.
4. Did VERY well in early grades and did no homework.
5. Was bullied.
6. Have a balance problem.
7. Insensitivity to cold.
8. VERY sensitive to sound.
9. can't catch.
10. stim.
11. sensitive to light.
12. Am a loner.
13. Have trouble understanding people, etc.
14. Have CAPD.
15. Even accused of lacking common sense
16. Even called a professor
17. Bad with small talk.
18. Can't stand crowds.
19. Can't stand being touched.
20. Picky eater.
21. FORGET parties or social gatherings.
22. Sticks to routine EVEN when it costs TENS of thousands of dollars a YEAR!

Heck, my school sent me to a psychiatrist when I was in first grade, because I wasn't socializing properly, etc... It isn't MY fault that it was well before 1981. (<<<Again, EMPHASIS).



OH YEAH, did I mention I had trouble understanding people? It is like a pendulum. It is hard to find a mid point.



I'm not following him around. Sorry, if it looks that way.



BTW I mentioned that MYSELF.(emphasis)

Perhaps the biggest problem with AS in an NT world is that everyone ends up either appearing to be extremely NT is some way, or having their intentions colored through that veil. I wish we could get rid of that. I would be happy if I could get rid of that. Hopefully, after this, you can filter your perception of me to get a better idea of where I am.

BTW I am sorry if the things I CAN do cause you to overlook those I CAN'T, and perceive me as an outsider. It is even worse if you feel, as you seem to, that I am someone with the sole purpose to attack Daniel. I really have NO such intent.

BTW Please realize that NO capitals were used with the intent to yell or harm.

BTW in case newportbeachdude was referring to me in any way. I am not addicted to drugs or alcohol and, if I ever DID go in a group and had trouble, I would quietly leave. I do this at social gatherings if I ever even go. I think I could really get along with some of you. It would be interesting.

Last edited by 2ukenkerl on 15 Apr 2008, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There's so far been one person who did that, and a few people who objected, as far as I can tell.

This has gone way out of hand, it's become personal between some people. A flame-war. I noticed once I re-read some of Daniel's posts his views became more clear. He's definently not on an anti-undiagnosis rant like a couple people in this thread think he is.

Jaded,

Just to set the tone, I doubt I ever said ANYTHING against you or your ideas, and think I can ALSO say that about most here.

I HAVE, to some people's horror here I am sure, actually toyed with going to an AS support group. I am FAR from perfect, and maybe they could help ME also! The idea of seeing others, etc... might be nice. Alas, the ones in my area tend to be for younger people, parents, or some interest I don't have.

Anyway, you stated your case, and the case of most undiagnosed aspies here, I am sure, WELL! WELL SAID!

AGAIN, capitals here were for emphasis only. I do apologize for people that are hurt by glare, etc... I will try to be more transparent here. I am not being sarcastic here, etc....

I wasn't talking about Daniel in my post (I thought this was obvious).

2ukenkerl wrote "AGAIN, capitals here were for emphasis only. I do apologize for people that are hurt by glare, etc... I will try to be more transparent here. I am not being sarcastic here, etc...."

Given how most people online take capitals (as screaming), you might want to know that you can do italic for emphasis and won't be accused of shouting for doing so.

Italics are done by typing [i] before the words you want in italic and [/i] after them. Like [i]this[/i]. And if you don't disable BBcode (as I've done so you can see what I'm doing), the things in between those will be emphasized in a non-allcaps way.

i LOVE my shift key. And I think it's obvious when someone is screaming versus when they're emphasizing something. Usually there's lots of ! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !'s and a**hole! thrown in.

I think it's cute you're trying to regulate shift-key usage, tho *snicker*

yep, i'm just all sorts of delightful today.