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Dussel
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09 Feb 2009, 11:27 pm

Loborojo wrote:
I introduced a friend of mine to ayahuasca in Europe, we were friends, so the atmosphere was ok, not threatening for her. She was on ati-depressants. She had more energy than ever before, she only took it once, and stayed away from the the anti-depressants. 1 year later i met her again, and still off the anti-depressants. that was what I call healing and with a ritual and respect for what teh shamsn in the Andes call, sacred medicine which the plant is.
But I rest my case, I don't need to have the last word...put your rants in the rant thread.


If you play with drugs, the first thing to buy is a precise mg-scale and to learn how to set injection IV, IM and subcutaneous. Contra to a common misconception the direct injection of the substance into body, if done hygienic and exact measurement, is most safe way of using drugs. At all other methods the amount the timespan between bringing the drug into the system and the actual effect is uncertain, it also uncertain how long the effect will last. This is general true for all drugs, but plants are even more dangerous because you do not known the exact amount of the active ingredients in a given amount of a plant. You just can't play with plants on safe side.



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09 Feb 2009, 11:31 pm

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
I introduced a friend of mine to ayahuasca in Europe, we were friends, so the atmosphere was ok, not threatening for her. She was on ati-depressants. She had more energy than ever before, she only took it once, and stayed away from the the anti-depressants. 1 year later i met her again, and still off the anti-depressants. that was what I call healing and with a ritual and respect for what teh shamsn in the Andes call, sacred medicine which the plant is.
But I rest my case, I don't need to have the last word...put your rants in the rant thread.


If you play with drugs, the first thing to buy is a precise mg-scale and to learn how to set injection IV, IM and subcutaneous. Contra to a common misconception the direct injection of the substance into body, if done hygienic and exact measurement, is most safe way of using drugs. At all other methods the amount the timespan between bringing the drug into the system and the actual effect is uncertain, it also uncertain how long the effect will last. This is general true for all drugs, but plants are even more dangerous because you do not known the exact amount of the active ingredients in a given amount of a plant. You just can't play with plants on safe side.


that's why there are so many deads of overdoses, because they can measure it? You make me sick comparing the vulgar use of a needle and injection adulterated substances into your body.

Ther have never been any accounts of death by ayahuasca, but should never tak it alone if you have never done it before, that's where the shaman comes in. Not one journey is the same.


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sinsboldly
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09 Feb 2009, 11:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Padium wrote:
This thread is so circular, its not even a spiral...

Yeah ... superstitious people who refuse to learn REAL knowledge vs. educated people who refuse to stop trying to teach what's real.

It's a seemingly endless struggle, but eventually reality always wins.


are you certain reality always wins?

what is your proof?

Merle


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09 Feb 2009, 11:34 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Padium wrote:
This thread is so circular, its not even a spiral...

Yeah ... superstitious people who refuse to learn REAL knowledge vs. educated people who refuse to stop trying to teach what's real.

It's a seemingly endless struggle, but eventually reality always wins.


are you certain reality always wins?

what is your proof?

Merle


who says we see reality (all is maya and even aborigenes believe our dreams are reality and not otherwise). When we know that our brain is slower in capting images in process compared to certain animals like dogs...


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09 Feb 2009, 11:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
I've attended enough pot parties and drug orgies - whether they were disguised as "Shamanistic Rituals" or "Sweat Lodges" or "Walking the Peyote Road" - and they are all the same: everyone wants to get high, lose their inhibitions, and experience some form of ecstasy. There is always some ersatz "Shaman" or "Dealer" whose only connection with the "shamanistic" culture" is having been rejected by even the most liberal of European cultures (from which they're usually deported, as well). And all that the participants end up with is a hangover, soiled clothing, and an incredible case of the munchies.

Don't preach to me about "legitimized" drug abuse, because there is no such thing, except where there is no law.


You're basing your entire experience off Shamanism off a bunch "pot parties" and "Drug orgies" that aren't even the real thing?



Dussel
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09 Feb 2009, 11:47 pm

Loborojo wrote:
that's why there are so many deads of overdoses, because they can measure it?


Those deaths are caused by either a lack of knowledge, of discipline, of not measuring the drug precisely (mg-scale!) or more often because it sometime hard to know the exact quality of the substance, because the market is illegal and therefore not regulated.

Loborojo wrote:
You make me sick comparing the vulgar use of a needle and injection adulterated substances into your body.


It same manipulation you brain functions.



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09 Feb 2009, 11:50 pm

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
that's why there are so many deads of overdoses, because they can measure it?


Those deaths are caused by either a lack of knowledge, of discipline, of not measuring the drug precisely (mg-scale!) or more often because it sometime hard to know the exact quality of the substance, because the market is illegal and therefore not regulated.

Loborojo wrote:
You make me sick comparing the vulgar use of a needle and injection adulterated substances into your body.


It same manipulation you brain functions.


a needle is intrusive and not natural compared to simple ingestion, which takes time to have its effect before it goes into the bloodstream. We are still talking injecting adulterated plants like crack, cocaine, heroin, opium, etc, which ayahuasca or san pedro is not.


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09 Feb 2009, 11:59 pm

Loborojo wrote:
a needle is intrusive and not natural compared to simple ingestion, which takes time to have its effect before it goes into the bloodstream. We are still talking injecting adulterated plants like crack, cocaine, heroin, opium, etc, which ayahuasca or san pedro is not.


The idea that some thinks are "natural" and other not is an artificial construct. The products of humans are the products of the human evolution, cultural and physical. A railway line or a banking account is as "natural" as a tree.



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10 Feb 2009, 10:01 am

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
a needle is intrusive and not natural compared to simple ingestion, which takes time to have its effect before it goes into the bloodstream. We are still talking injecting adulterated plants like crack, cocaine, heroin, opium, etc, which ayahuasca or san pedro is not.


The idea that some thinks are "natural" and other not is an artificial construct. The products of humans are the products of the human evolution, cultural and physical. A railway line or a banking account is as "natural" as a tree.


bull, natural is what comes forth from nature and not from technology


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Dussel
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10 Feb 2009, 10:06 am

Loborojo wrote:
bull, natural is what comes forth from nature and not from technology


And how produces technology? Humans. And where come humans from? Evolution. The whole concept of "natural" does not make any sense, because the opposite concept "unnatural" does not make sense either.



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10 Feb 2009, 10:09 am

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
bull, natural is what comes forth from nature and not from technology


And how produces technology? Humans. And where come humans from? Evolution. The whole concept of "natural" does not make any sense, because the opposite concept "unnatural" does not make sense either.


who says we evolved from say bacteria or primates? I rather believe like the Dogons form africa that we came from Sirius, or like the Egyptians from Orion or teh like the Maori from the Pleiades.

I believe we degenerated once we were put here adn made us into a primitive species that fought wars. We were dropped here and only learned how to dominate earth...


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10 Feb 2009, 10:16 am

Loborojo wrote:
Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
bull, natural is what comes forth from nature and not from technology


And how produces technology? Humans. And where come humans from? Evolution. The whole concept of "natural" does not make any sense, because the opposite concept "unnatural" does not make sense either.


who says we evolved from say bacteria or primates?


Tons of tons of tons of scientific evidence, including our own genome.



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10 Feb 2009, 10:23 am

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
bull, natural is what comes forth from nature and not from technology


And how produces technology? Humans. And where come humans from? Evolution. The whole concept of "natural" does not make any sense, because the opposite concept "unnatural" does not make sense either.


who says we evolved from say bacteria or primates?


Tons of tons of tons of scientific evidence, including our own genome.


tons of evidence from teh Dogon with their drawings in caves...but we are digressing from teh shamanic topic


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10 Feb 2009, 10:44 am

Loborojo wrote:
Tons of tons of tons of scientific evidence, including our own genome.


tons of evidence from teh Dogon with their drawings in caves...but we are digressing from teh shamanic topic[/quote]

But none in our genome - the recent mapping of the genome of the Great Apes and the Human Genome Project shows very clearly, our species is a only surviving species of the two lines which constitutes the Group of Hominina. The other line are pan (chimpanzee and bonobo). The genetic variance, including mutations, including adopted virus DNA, or the sequence of our 21th chromosome, which constitutes of two ape chromosomes are evidence enough - even if we would have no single bone fragment.



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10 Feb 2009, 11:01 am

Dussel wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Tons of tons of tons of scientific evidence, including our own genome.


tons of evidence from teh Dogon with their drawings in caves...but we are digressing from teh shamanic topic


But none in our genome - the recent mapping of the genome of the Great Apes and the Human Genome Project shows very clearly, our species is a only surviving species of the two lines which constitutes the Group of Hominina. The other line are pan (chimpanzee and bonobo). The genetic variance, including mutations, including adopted virus DNA, or the sequence of our 21th chromosome, which constitutes of two ape chromosomes are evidence enough - even if we would have no single bone fragment.[/quote]

ever heard of the clay tablets from Sumeria?


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10 Feb 2009, 11:32 am

Loborojo wrote:
ever heard of the clay tablets from Sumeria?


They are known and deciphered: Mostly boring list of food stock, taxes, property rights, payments, etc. One of the first great monuments of bureaucracy in human history.