Why is it easier for NTs to feign?

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alba
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07 Jul 2009, 11:23 am

This very excellent commentary, IMO, is from another thread wherein it didn't receive the positive attention it deserves. The poster makes a critical, but often dismissed, point regarding presentation and delivery. All too often, when aspies and auties attempt to defend ourselves, we do so in a socially offensive [unskilled] manner that brings more stress and pressure into our lives, rather than less.....while it becomes very obvious to most of the NTs in our vicinity, that we lack the social graces to be team players.....and from their pov, we may even lack the desire to be pleasant and cooperative. Not good. We are seen as so self-involved and rigid, that we are felt to be very poor employees. Consequently it becomes nigh unto impossible for us to survive without public or private assistance.

Quote:

It's not the fact that you are standing up for yourselves.....it's that fact HOW you do it. There's a difference between being asked something and you just going "Haha no way man, I really have no time, sorry dude" or you starting to get all pissy and defensive. The former will just invoke a "oh well, it was worth a try" thought while the latter will be more "Ho ho man chill out, not need to get all flustered.....don't be so sensitive"

As spectrumites valiantly try to survive in a world that seems to hate our guts---sometimes being reasonable and practical are just as important as the quest for truth and integrity. Although unless articulately pointed out as in the above post, we may rarely catch on to what we're doing wrong. I'm at the end of my rope and still pretty clueless about my poor social skills. Quite frankly I'm desperate to feel that I belong, in some meaningful way, to the human enterprise on this planet----as opposed to always feeling "left out" and ostracized. While I know that I've experienced some degree of success with incorporating new skills and techniques in dealing with acquaintances, and that is a major victory that I savor, there is still the lack of skill to achieve prolonged friendship. When I do make a friend, the friendship dissolves usually because I refuse to give any more to the kind of person who enjoys abusing my generosity. This must stop. I must find out how to fix it.

I, more than most of you, seem to get "pissy" in defending my position. I'm verbose, overly sensitive, and tend to over-react to the slightest provocation. But I appreciate the feedback from NTs who can point out my mistakes. For only in identifying the causes of my failure, will I be able to enjoy long lasting companionship with NT friends.

The reason it is easier for NTs to feign, from my way of thinking, is obviously because they have more confidence in themselves and are willing to do whatever it takes to get along with others. While I have bent over backwards defending the "truth and integrity" postition, it hasn't helped me one bit in my endeavors to listen to others and abide by reasonable advice. I'm not ready to feign, but I am willing to listen.

Greentea
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07 Jul 2009, 11:36 am

Alba, but you do belong. Your people are right here, aren't they? So what if you can't see my naked, flabby legs sweating in this terrible heat in the desert as I type? Does that make us less real? I'd think that's just for your benefit... :lol: :lol:

I totally relate to your post, it does strike home very much. That's why it's impossible for me to assert myself. I can't do it the NT acceptable way.

But please cite the source of the quote.

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Greentea
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07 Jul 2009, 11:43 am

granatelli, what you're describing is a liar. Honesty is first and foremost about openness to other possibilities, dialogue, flexibility to understand other positions. All this is done by stating one's truth and dialoguing with the truth of the other person. This is why in my signature I ask people to show me where I'm wrong in my claims.

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alba
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07 Jul 2009, 11:52 am

granatelli wrote:

.....the person comes off as a know it all, closed mind rigid jerk who is no better than the flat earthers. IMO there is a razor fine line between conviction of truth and self centered arrogance.

granatelli,
By way of illustrating your point, may I introduce you to the PPR forum, where narcissists and insensitive jerks have founded their very own WP kingdom?

Not to mention that I and many ordinarily reasonable aspies/auties, have become far too obsessed with our right to integrity and dignity, at the expense of the majority who may present to us as witless conformists manifesting herd mentality....but are in actuality thoughtful and cooperative NTs who don't want to "make waves".

While I do get your point, granatelli, I agree 99.99% with nara44. The reason is that he is right.

We autistics have been persecuted from birth. We've been stripped of our identity and our dignity. Far worse, we've been tormented and the majority of us have been abused in our homes and/or via the public school system. Not to mention the workplace. We're obviously disabled. But not through our neurological bizarreness.....rather through the oppression we've been forced to endure.

Is it not sensible to provide us accommodation, and to be patient with our shortcomings as well?

And, granatelli, please rest assured that I and many others here, are much obliged for your efforts to teach us the error of our ways. It's just that we are very very stubborn people and not inclined to be convinced that we owe the NT world respect for the way they've treated us.

Last edited by alba on 07 Jul 2009, 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

granatelli
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07 Jul 2009, 11:57 am

dup post

granatelli
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07 Jul 2009, 12:20 pm

I hear what you're saying, and yes, that is one way of looking at it. But would you not agree that rigidity & inflexability is a classic symptom of AS? What I'm saying what if the person with AS is wrong? What if they are wrong about something but just will not budge in the slightest?

It seems what you're trying to describe is a situation where the person with AS just also happens to be almost Christ like in his/her relationships with other people. Always fair, open minded, only seeking the truth. That would be great if that were the case, but I think the reality is that people with AS are just like anyone else. They have various levels of education and intelligence, different home and family histories, they have egos and agendas just like anyone else. They just process things differently.

I'm unfamiliar with the PPR forum. It doesn't sound like a very fun place. : )

Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers here. My main point is people with AS are no better or worse or any more "honest" or right than NT's are. They are all individuals. Bound together by their AS, but individuals as well.

Greentea wrote:

Last edited by granatelli on 07 Jul 2009, 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alba
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07 Jul 2009, 12:32 pm

maybe i need a break from wp

.

Last edited by alba on 07 Jul 2009, 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alba
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07 Jul 2009, 2:20 pm

deleted

.

Last edited by alba on 07 Jul 2009, 4:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.

granatelli
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07 Jul 2009, 2:38 pm

I just don't know what to think of your post. Over the top is the best I can think of. "Tortured by NT's"? "Concentration camps"? "Worse than waterboarding"? "Reparations"? Sounds to me like you think all people with AS are Saints and all NT's are Satan. As a member of the NT community that has an AS partner quite frankly I resent your black and white stereotyping of both communities.

Again. I'm just about speeechless.

alba wrote:

my dear granatelli,
Due to the fact that you failed to employ my username, I don't know which portion of your comment was directed to me, and which to Greentea. Therefore, because of your reference to PPR, which I assume was to me, I have taken the liberty of replying to the entirety of your post, with no intention of trying to answer for Greentea herself.

granatelli wrote:

I hear what you're saying, and yes, that is one way of looking at it.

um....no. it's the ONLY way of looking at it. If you're referring to my stating or implying that we have a right to disrespect the NT community for the way they've tortured us. As well as to be unyielding and self-interested. Who else is going to watch out for us--if we're not self-interested? And I use the word "tortured" meaning what has been done to many of us is just as wrong, if not worse, than waterboarding.

Quote:

But would you not agree that rigidity & inflexability is a classic symptom of AS?

agreed, so what. we've been tortured. we're not terrorists, we're innocent neuroaliens! How much of our rigidity is due to our neuro bizarreness and how much to our punishment for being different? Consideration of these facts is paramount....the #1 priority to keep in mind when attempting to see our pov and helping us heal from our defective socialization. First our sense of self must be restored to us with interest...and penalties must be assessed on those who've caused our suffering and ruined our lives...that probably means taxes used on our behalf. Now...once reparation is made, once we are provided free-of charge therapies, that we ourselves are entitled to choose and are NOT forced upon us....then we can look at our rigidity and inflexibility at our leisure, without spending every available minute stressing about the past and worrying about how to survive the present.

Quote:

What I'm saying what if the person with AS is wrong? What if they are wrong about something but just will not budge in the slightest?

What if we're not wrong? Or let's put it this way....Given that we've been the victims of living in a society where we were treated as the inmates of a concentration camp---what do you expect? Coaxing us to become more pleasant and congenial won't be possible without first providing us the accommodation AND HEALING we require. I want to understand what you're saying, but to me, it is not feasible. You can't expect aspies/auties to be reasonable people, given what we've been put through. Nevertheless you have shown a willingness to teach us what we need to learn and I'm more than willing to listen to what you have to say.

Quote:

It seems what you're trying to describe is a situation where the person with AS just also happens to be almost Christ like in his/her relationships with other people. Always fair, open minded, only seeking the truth. That would be great if that were the case, but I think the reality is that people with AS are just like anyone else.

No. You are wrong. The reality is that we've been tortured and we don't trust the torturers. We are NOT like anyone else.

Quote:

They have various levels of education and intelligence, different home and family histories, they have egos and agendas just like anyone else. They just process things differently.

We process things differently but we don't have a healthy self esteem. That was stolen from us by NT society.

Quote:

I'm unfamiliar with the PPR forum. It doesn't sound like a very fun place. : )

Politics, Philosophy, and Religion Forum, 19th in the forum list.

Quote:

Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers here. My main point is people with AS are no better or worse or any more "honest" or right than NT's are. They are all individuals. ound together by their AS, but individuals as well.

Greentea wrote:

alba
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07 Jul 2009, 3:05 pm

granatelli wrote:

I in no way meant that diatribe as a personal attack. Please do not take it as such. Your comments are precious to me as well as many others here. And I was perhaps tactless and rude. Please accept my apology. I really don't want to offend or discourage your comments.

As usual, I didn't say what I meant very well. And I don't know how to improve it. Maybe someone will intervene and point out where I went over the top. Again, I sincerely mean no offense to you personally....and fear that's how it came across. :cry:

You did show me where you thought I was wrong or offensive. Reparations: If you stay here long enough and listen to enough testimonies, maybe you too will become convinced a social injustice has been perpetrated against us......for something we can no more control than our height or the color of our skin. As for waterboarding, consider the psychological equivalent.

.

Last edited by alba on 07 Jul 2009, 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

granatelli
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07 Jul 2009, 3:40 pm

Alba. Apologie accepted. I too am sorry if I took it the wrong way. I guess your ferocity and passion for the subject came out. I'm sorry you had a rough go of it at times and I'm sorry some NT's treated you poorly. We're not all that way, and I suspect that even some of them who treated you badly did not even know they were doing so and intended no malice. Just as it is possible for someone with AS to unknowingly come off as an oaf, NT's are no different. They are not mind readers.

In any case, forget it. : ) If I have time later we'll chat a bit more. Cheers!

alba wrote:

granatelli wrote:

Please show me where you think I was wrong and/or offensive.

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