Not autistic under DSM 5!

Post Reply New Topic

I find it very hard to view "Kanner's autism" in the way that it is described in modern usage, simply because what people assign to the label differs a lot from what Kanner actually did, so I'll probably continue to repeat that bit of information because I find it difficult to accept the modern view as applicable.

Not arguing with you, just explaining.

PDD = autism. They are meant to mean the same thing. However, it's arguable that childhood disintegration disorder might not be autism at all, and Rett's Syndrome is being removed from the category in the DSM-5.

The quote and link above is from the actual DSMV organization's website. That is their words, not mine, that they are subsuming PDD NOS, into Autism Spectrum Disorder per the current proposed revision.

Per this current revision neither the diagnosis of Aspergers or PDD NOS will exist in the DSMV, if if that aspect of the DSMV revision, quoted and linked above stays the same in the final revision.

There are currently at least two studies that provide evidence that over 50% of individuals with Aspergers and PDD NOS would not meet criteria for an Autsism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis, if re-assessed under the current revised DSMV criteria.

And the study quoted earlier in the thread, suggests that 25% of individuals currently diagnosed with Autism Disorder under the DSMIV, would not meet the new criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorder under the DSMV.

The historical studies that suggest that up to 75% of individuals with Aspergers meet the criteria of Autism Disorder, is under DSMIV criteria for Autism Disorder, not the DSMV criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorder which is significantly different.

There is another study done by an actual working group member of the DSMV group that showed in a group of 66 individuals with PDD NOS that 64 of those individuals did not have RRB's per their DSMIV diagnosis of PDD NOS.

While RRB's are not a mandatory requirement in the DSMIV, for PDD NOS, 2 out 4 Restricted Repetitive behaviors are mandatory in the DSMV.

It is suggested by this individual that did that research, that social communication disorder, is the likely diagnosis that they will be moved into if re-assessed under the DSMV.


In Spring of 2013 when the new criteria go into effect there will be hundreds of thousands of people somewhere in a diagnosing professionals folder or computer, that uses DSMV standards, that will have an outdated DSMIV label of Aspergers or PDD NOS.

If someone is required to provide proof of a current diagnosis by a government source for support, in these cases the individuals will possess a diagnosis that is outdated and no longer valid, if it was done under DSMIV standards, and will likely require re-assessment under DSMV standards.

Per professional standards, people with a PDD NOS diagnosis, will not automatically be put into the new DSMV diagnosis for ASD, unless they are re-assessed and meet that criteria.

It's highly unlikely that most psychiatrists are going to do this for free, unless someone comes in and pays for the re-assessment.

In most cases, if the patients don't pay for a re-asssessment it is likely that they will remain in the files with an outdated DSMIV diagnosis, that is no longer valid for government support services when verification of diagnosis is required.

Per the topic, "No longer Autistic under DSMV", if an individual has Aspegers or PDD NOS, diagnosed under the DSMIV, that is going to be a factually technically correct statement per diagnostic procedure, until they are actually re-assessed under the new DSMV standards and meet the criteria of the final revision of the new Autism Spectrum Disorder.

Of course people can self-diagnosis themselves under the new DSMV criteria, just as they do now under the DSMIV criteria, but it won't mean anything to an an actual organizational need to verifiy a current professional diagnosis.

The DSMV website, linked above, provides information on the continued use of the term Aspergers in the clinical environment as quoted below, under the rationale section of why aspergers is being subsumed under the new ASD diagnosis.

Why are they removing Rhett's from the DSM?

You seem to overlook the dimension of developmental change that is impossible to predict under the old DSMIV based system. Kanner and Asperger based their observations on a few individuals so to begin with their studies were never representative of the spectrum of "fluid" symptoms that the millions of people diagnosed with ASD carry that change with time.

If you pursue this further for study then consider developmental fluidity when it comes to developmental disorders because the quaint old pigeon holes of Kanners autism or AS are not great at predicting how a child develops into adulthood.

My brother was considered severely intellectually disabled in the early 1970s as a child and my parents had to fight to keep him in the public school system. Without formal intervention or treatment he began to speak around 5 yrs of age and by his fifth year of primary school he was lucky to have a very patient teacher who spent time with him. If he was born today he would be labelled low functioning autistic, but even this label would be erroneous.

Over time he he became higher functioning to the point he got an engineering degree, got married (and divorced) and is now living life as an expat traveling the world living quite independently. Nobody in their wildest dreams would even guess his primary school battled with my parents to have him institutionalized as disabled.

At the very least the DSMV spectrum allows for a scale which acknowledges children change over time.

I realise the Kanner's kids make you shudder with embarrassment, but you never know, the NT you rubbed shoulders with the other day may have been born with a similar disability and you wouldn't know.

I'm well aware that early intervention can make a world of difference. And low-functioning individuals don't make me embarrassed. Rather, since the media focuses more on low-functioning symptoms in early childhood, I rarely see any connections with my childhood when I watch/read something about ASD development. I don't relate to a lot of the common ASD struggles, so it makes me feel like I don't fit at times.

Thank you for writing this.
I relate to it.
I was wondering the last days about which traits of autism are not being found in any other disorders and I guess this is one.

That may be so, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to air this on a public autism forum?

BTW I'm not singling you out, there's plenty of Aspies here who want to keep their high functioning diagnosis and are busy scouring the literature for evidence to rebuff the DSMV changes.

I'm almost certainly autistic myself (self-diagnosed) but am able to blend easily in the NT world because of my ability to adapt. Despite this I do relate with the journey many autistic people are taking and the journey my daughter is currently taking.

If you don't feel part of the ASD world thats fine, many here would love to be in your shoes.

Because I have an official Asperger's diagnosis and feel the need to debate this issue with the community. This is really the best place to talk about these issues. Most of the public doesn't even know what the DSM-V IS, let alone what it's changes will be.

Well, if you want to get real technical, I suppose autism and AS aren't the exact same thing. But they're both part of a spectrum!

Apparently not, Aparantly it is a term to refer to 5 disodorders:
autism
aspergers
retts syndrome
Childhood disintegrative disorder
PDD NOS

Also they are getting rid of the term Aspergers and instead using the term autism spectrum for autism and as.......I've seen no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are going to lump all the PDDs under autism. that would make sense as all those conditions aside from aspergers and autism aren't autism specifically.

The problem is that there are two different terminological traditions - the DSM-designation "PDD" covers largely the same thing that ICD-designation "Austism Spectrum Disorder"

This may have been stated already as I did not read the whole chain. )

But my concerns are for insurance purposes. Some people may not be able to get insurance to pay for some services because the definition was moved somewhat. Also, they may not qualify for schooling from some states as states often set aside funds for job training etc. of handicap individuals through their department of rehabilitation.

As it is many of us our underemployed due to social issues etc.

Also, this could effect special educational services on the elementary school level.

I don't think the problems disappear if someone simply changes definition. In some ways, it confuses the issue more.

Well as I said I still have not seen any evidence to suspect all of them are being lumped under autism spectrum disorder....autism and aspergers are the only ones of those that are 'autism' the others I imagine would remain under the PDDs along with 'Autism Spectrum Disorder.' not as the same thing but under PDD there will be autism spectrum disorder, PDD NOS, CDD and Retts Syndrome is what I suspect from what I've seen and heard about the changes being made.

Chances are the majority with AS are going to be classified as autistic, I hardly see how that indicates their problems 'disappeared.'

For what I read in the site of dsm5, I think the "PDD" concept will be simply disappear (made some sense, because it is a bit silly name - the meaning of the name "PDD" is a development disorder that affects most sides of your life - because that, "pervasive" - but, in practice, it had always the meaning of "condition similar to autism"; note that the diagnostic criteria for the several PDDs were all based in the diagnostic criteria for autism; I suspect the name PDD was created simply to avoid the negative connotation of the word "autism").