High School male with AS stabs classmate.

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And what about those who CAN'T punch? I can't fight, neither can my son. He's been in TaeKwonDo and boxing and he still can't fight. So he just stands there and "takes it"?

Again, not justifying a stabbing here but trying to make a point, some kids can't fight and when they try they end up getting hurt and humiliated even more.

Diane

ps: Oh and another thought... Who decides what's reasonable force? Maybe to the kid who did the stabbing it WAS reasonable force... ? Still not knowing if the kid was bullied or not, but if he was it would be VERY easy for him to see using a knife as being reasonable force if he couldn't fight back with his fists...

What if punching them is not an effective means to stop them? If they outmatch you then you need a weapon to apply sufficient force to stop them.

In my experience, the teacher who decides to defend the bully from his victim decides what constitutes reasonable force. Predictably, the teacher usually decides that the amount of force that is reasonable is no force at all, in other words, the bully beating on you with his fists somehow justifies absolutely no use of force to protect yourself.

If I was being beat on, I would use whatever means to get that person to stop, if I had a knife on me then I would use it. I would be fearing for my own life.

Again, where are you getting the information that the victim was a bully? I have yet to see it reported anywhere, and have seen plenty of evidence (though circumstantial) to the contrary so far. People continue to jump to conclusions in an effort to defend a possible murderer simply because he has AS. It blows my mind...

On fox news, they said the alleged murderer was charged with murder, and held without bail. No other info was given about direct facts pertaining to the case.

Steve

Live with it. The probability is pretty high that this interpretation is true.

Ahem. Reasonable force is determined by the law system in whatever state/country the act is committed in. Generally this means, if someone shoves you, shove back. If someone tries to take your life with a knife, it's debatable whether shooting them or not is reasonable force...that is up to the jury to decide. Basically it comes down to...if your aggressor is completely and utterly fooking overpowered by whatever you use as self-defence (ie: a gun vs fists) you have no leg to stand on, legally. And despite what your morals may be, it's going to be the legal system that governs the society you live in that will pwn you if you step out of line.

For those that cannot fight back and are up for more humiliation as a result, I hardly think they'll be able to stab someone instead. It's more likely their weapon will be turned against them. I guess that's where the debate comes in as to how to deal with bullying...

At the end of the day, still, if you kill someone it's manslaughter. You've taken someone's life. Even pleading self-defence (or insanity, as seems to be the trend every now and again) may not save you...

Arguably, having a weapon on you (especially in school!) could have you up for, instead of self-defence, first-degree murder. ie: murder with intent...plotted, etc.




(and fer fook's sehk. Nowhere was it even mentioned there was a possibility there was an iota of an excuse that the murdered boy was a bully. It happens 99% of the time that AS etc kids [or random dorks like me] are wailed on through school and get in trouble for retaliating, but thus far evidence points otherwise in this case.)

Any weapon that is consider deadly ( not your fist unless your chuck Norris ) would allow justifiable deadly force from any weapon you have. For example attacker with baseball bats have been shot by police and its been ruled self-defence.

Not talking about an eye for an eye. Talking about being prepared to put the other idiot's life at risk to defend one's own. Talking about communicating with them in their own language. Both banging someone's had against a locker and putting someone's head in a toilet are potentially deadly assaults. In saner settings a person is usually found by a jury of his peers to have been entitled to use a deadly defense against a potentially deadly assault. Even pushing someone down can be potentially deadly, especially if it's on asphalt, concrete, or some other solid surface, because concussions can occur and become deadly. So can kicking someone in the stomach.

I'm repeating myself again, but in my experience the victim of bullying usually gets no slack about any retaliatory actions. Getting something done by "legal means" can be a big uphill battle because teachers will claim that it didn't happen. I've watched a teacher deliberately and knowingly lie to my mother. The victim is often trapped with no recourse at all, subjected to potentially deadly assaults on a daily basis.

And I know of a case where the prosecutor charged a battered wife with murder for arming herself in case her estranged husband returned and tried to batter her again. The jury found her innocent. Some prosecutors want to call it preparing to kill someone when the victim prepares to defend herself or himself. That's just being exploitative. It is a basic right to arm one's self to defend against an attacker who has attacked before and will attack again.

I've seen teachers massage the evidence before, denying that bullying took place. A couple of so-called teachers that I had knew that this rotten slimeball was on my neck every day and they helped him do it. So I'm projecting. At least accept the possibility that there is a teacher who is lying and that he or she thinks to get away with it because of the way everyone dumps on the one who killed. Sometimes it's a gang and they just do "little" things, keep pecking away at the victim until he's bloody and plucked. This is not water wearing away a stone, it's more like a pickaxe wearing away a stone. In my case I was saddled with alleged human beings who could not digest certain simple concepts like that. Ironically, the same alleged human beings would use hands and fists against a much smaller human being for the smallest offense. With them I began to reject the claim that I "made them do it" and decided that they were part of the same system.

Maybe our Aspie here was actually the bully, and in that case, well, find the teachers who have been covering that fact up and make them answer for it. They really can't win either direction. We either have a victim of bullying and the bullies are being defended and hidden from view by the school or he is the bully who is being defended and hidden. I absolutely will not buy the idea that he got the idea to stab his classmates from somewhere out of the ether. He has a history of one kind or the other and the school has failed to deal with it.

Because you say so? Why?

Still no evidence of your interpretation yet. Besides, there's numerous incidents of the bullied, isolated kid coming to school with a weapon and randomly killing kids he had no contact with at all. Wayne Lo, Klebold & Harris, Barry Loukaitis...it's a long, long list, which leads me to believe that the likelihood of my interpretation is pretty high. Why do people assume this situation is any different? Because Odgren has AS, so you identify with him? How irrational is that?

I have already overexplained this. I do not accept the dismissal of my claims.

"Battered Wife Syndrome" is now considered an acceptable defense in many states. However, in these cases we are talking about an adult male who is supposed to know better, and there are nevertheless many women in prison for killing their abusive husband.

Why should it be a syndrome? If he has been told to stay away and goes to her to beat on her, he is committing an assault that can end in death. She has the absolute right to defend herself using a gun. He has the absolute right to leave her alone.

I don't find it hard to imagine these kids coming to school with the intent of taking out ALL bullies, whether a specific bully bullied them or some other poor kid. There's a LOT of pent-up anger at the injustice.

Not saying it's right, just saying it's very plausible. My son gets VERY angry when he sees other kids being bullied, just as when he himself is bullied. Yet he cannot fight back nor defend the other kid who is being bullied. That makes his anger even greater.

Heck it raises MY hackles when I can't defend someone that is being bullied!