n4mwd wrote:
Horus wrote:
thechadmaster wrote:
God made a rule that he would not interfere with free will, man chooses to sin. Im sure God does not approve of hilters actions, but the earth is satans domain. satan loves to cause trouble up here, and that will continue until judgement day.
Explain to me how "free will" is possible if god is OMNISCIENT ("ALL KNOWING".)
If god is truly omniscient, he would've known EXACTLY what Hitler was going to do an eternity prior to creating him. After all, an omniscient god would know everything about the past, present, future and everything else.
But he created him anyway didn't he?
Chad just explained that, but bear in mind that this isn't the proper thread for this kind of discussion. If we get into a "who's religion is best" debate, we will be here forever.
But I'll try to elaborate from a religious perspective for those that are curious. However, don't expect it to make any sense if you don't believe in God in the first place.
So yes, God knew about hitler when he first created Adam in the Garden of Eden. But Hitler was not created. He had a mother and a father and the rest was biology. There have been many "hitlers" throughout history and there will be more to come. God generally does not interfere with these things.
A lot of people have a serious misconception about God. They perceive him as being an old guy in a white robe that goes around helping people who are good and punishing people who are bad - kind of like Santa Claus with a different wardrobe.
The biggest misconception about God is that he is fair. He isn't fair and this is very clear to people who study the Bible. And he never promised to be fair either. If he was fair, none of us would have AS and robbers would drop dead the second they robbed someone.
In the Christian religion, as strange as this sounds, there are murderers that will go to heaven and peaceful, law abiding people who always volunteer and help the poor that will go to hell. You can't get any more unfair than that, but its true.
So why would a peaceful, law abiding do-gooder go to hell? We all carry Adam's sin by being his descendant. Thus, we are guilty of sin before we are even born.
So how can a murderer go to heaven? Christ came to Earth and essentially gave everyone a "Get out of hell free" card. The catch is that you have to ask for it. So if a murderer asks for this, he will get it, and go to heaven while the do-gooder who didn't ask for it, goes to hell for a sin committed by his ancestor.
So again, if you try to understand Christianity by applying normal rules of fairness, you will only succeed at confusing yourself.
You really don't know what you're talking about when you talk about relating justice to the Judeo-Christian God. Perhaps I can clear some things up for you.
When exposing justice in relation to God, you have to account for two very different perspectives that are, by nature, always at odds with each other.
First, there is justice from YOUR perspective--what YOU think is right and wrong, a sense of morality that serves and suits YOU and YOUR whims and desires. Second, there is justice from God's perspective--those things that are universally right/wrong and serves God's will and desire for humanity, the temporal world, and the eternal world.
Morality from the first perspective is self-centered. Without being motivated by God's will (for example, instructed by God's Spirit, confirmed by Scriptural study, and so on), all human deeds are for selfish purposes. I'm not saying that it makes you a "bad person," necessarily. I'm just saying that the reasons and motivations for doing good things is misplaced and therefore have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven. Self-centered and self-driven morality is inherently flawed and can't possibly measure up to God's standard.
God-centered morality, however, IS God's will for all humanity. God loves us, therefore we love others. Jesus did good deeds and gave His life as a sacrifice on our behalf, therefore we ought to do good deeds and even be willing to give our own lives if in doing so we may save others. All those things that we know to be good and right aren't good and right just because we feel it is good and right today, but may not be convenient tomorrow, but they ARE good and right because God said so. Because we seek to please God, and because God loves us, then we seek also was is best for each other and love each other as though we are brothers and sisters. A careful reading of the Bible reveals this was the intention from the beginning
As to what is fair and what is not: Accusing God of injustice takes away the point of view from God and places it on the individual. You might say, for example, that God is evil and unfair because He caused His chosen people to enact His vengeance upon Canaan during its conquest after the Exodus. To us, it is unfair to kill children in warfare. It is wrong, however, to question God's motives because God is the author of all that is right and just. Indeed, paying close attention to the genocide in Judges and using simple, common sense reveals God's greater purpose. The Israelites were to take back their promised land from people who had truly horrible religious practices (child sacrifice, incest, bestiality, and so on). The religious practices of these people were so ingrained into their culture that there really was no way for the Israelites to assimilate them into their own culture. As to why small children have to die--the choice would be to kill them or to enslave them. How willing would YOU be to undergo forced labor serving someone you had witnessed kill your own parents right in front of you? As an Israelite, how could you know for sure you could trust that child as he grows up? There was absolutely NO merciful way to allow those children to live after they already bore the mark of their parents intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Besides, the responsibility lay with their parents, who along with THEIR ancestors had PLENTY of time to try to make things right with God. What God did makes perfect sense.
Also reading through the Bible to the end of the books of the kings, you'll notice that the Israelites (the Judahites as well as the Samaritans) were always acting contrary to God's instructions, and God eventually allowed surrounding kingdoms to destroy them, ultimately resulting in the Babylonian exile. You might say that wasn't fair, but you also have to consider these were people God had set apart for Himself and His purpose through them and afforded them special protection. They broke their covenant with God, and God punished them. You might say "that's not fair," but the REAL injustice is how God's own people acted towards Him. Make God angry and you deserve what you get.
You asked "How can a murderer go to heaven?" You got the basic idea, which I like to call the Christian's "fire insurance." Consider what I've already written: There are God-centered motives and Self-centered motives, the selfish motives being those things you do because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy or you do/not do certain things to avoid feeling guilt (or whatever).
In a way, the murderer has it easy. In the OT, the ONLY punishment appropriate for murder was death. Well, something so egregious and unforgivable in our eyes conveys with it a sense of hopelessness. The murderer is in the position that only God can save him. He may still face earthly consequences for murder (lifetime in prison, death sentence, other), but he at least has hope in the afterlife that all will be forgotten.
The do-gooder is not unlike the priests and lawyers of Jesus' day. Those guys kept the Law of Moses and THEN SOME. The problem became that their motivation was their own self-righteousness, not their love for God. Even worse, they stuck these rules to anyone they came into contact with in the Temple. These do-gooders, just like even the most innocent do-gooders today, is at the very least guilty of pride. The reason why is that he does good things while his pride tells him (because he's a "good person"), that, as a good person, he isn't a sinner and has no need for salvation. It is unlikely that he, as would the murderer, would ever have the kind of humbling experience that demonstrates just how much he really needs God. A murderer, especially one that has been convicted, has to suffer the humiliation of losing his dignity and freedom. It's much more difficult (not impossible, just hard) for those of privileged circumstances to really see what this whole need for forgiveness and salvation is all about. It isn't so much that God sends us to Hell as it is we send ourselves. We have the choice. And so long as human nature is inherently sinful, at the very least it is our pride that prevents us from ever being "good enough" to be fit for an eternity in God's presence. But because God IS merciful and fair, he does allow us the choice to spend eternity with Him or without Him. For those of us who DO choose God, He has provided a means through which we are made perfect and may enter His presence. Though most of us will face physical death, we don't HAVE to experience spiritual death and the consequence of Hell.
By making allowances that many may choose death over Life, God demonstrates His fairness and mercy. There is nothing confusing about it. It makes perfect sense.
08 Jul 2010, 12:50 am
