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Things YOU Understand (but Don't Understand) About NTs

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Joe90
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29 Jun 2012, 7:48 am

The way all young NTs seem to be interested in drinking and dancing. Well, I used the word ''all'' because I don't know any better - I come from an NT family where all of my siblings and cousins are into the same thing: drinking and dancing.


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29 Jun 2012, 6:38 pm

Joe90 wrote:
The way all young NTs seem to be interested in drinking and dancing. Well, I used the word ''all'' because I don't know any better - I come from an NT family where all of my siblings and cousins are into the same thing: drinking and dancing.


With all due respect, Joe90, this is the sort of response I wasn't looking for, as I expressed in my OP.

Yours is an example of "Something I can see that NTs like, but I don't like."

I was asking about things that people do that you're not oblivious to, but go counter to you nature. Not just liking/disliking a social activity.



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29 Jun 2012, 6:39 pm

Mdyar wrote:
We are looking at a 'concept' of human behavior/relations, of people relating/communicating to other people- aka "ToM." You can split the hair on all mental health conditions: schizoid, schizotypal, borderline personailty disorders, etc. You can even apply ToM to the intellectually challenged or intellectually deprived via culture, as what I believe to be the case in the link.


This doesn't address the questions about Person A and Person B, who is Aspie/NT, who has ToM, who lacks it. And how is it 'cultural depravity'?



Mdyar
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29 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm

again_with_this wrote:
Mdyar wrote:
We are looking at a 'concept' of human behavior/relations, of people relating/communicating to other people- aka "ToM." You can split the hair on all mental health conditions: schizoid, schizotypal, borderline personailty disorders, etc. You can even apply ToM to the intellectually challenged or intellectually deprived via culture, as what I believe to be the case in the link.


This doesn't address the questions about Person A and Person B, who is Aspie/NT, who has ToM, who lacks it. And how is it 'cultural depravity'?


A lack in theory of mind by someone on the spectrum indicates a problem with communication, such as: 1) body language 2) language 3)emotional reciprocity. A lack in a "B" has a disadvantage in what? By a nurturing in a homogeneous group leading to a lack in social imagination - completely insular. His deficit is cultural, you could say. Right? Wouldn't we have two of similar ilk?

A true A would not have cognitive issues.

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And how is it 'cultural depravity'?


Is depraved at typo? Let's say they're disadvantaged by their environment..

As mentioned you can easily say that someone Gifted is insular from culture and would or could have trouble relating to 'different' people.

In this thread, I think you are hunting into what side of the theory mind spectrum you fall into. If you cognitively get it, but emotively fail to grasp or comprehend it intuitively - with emotion- then you may fall into the spectrum of 'emotional reciprocity'. I fall into it the same way. If you're a Gifted NT, then you wouldn't have issues with empathy. Such ones 'know' but get along with the order. They intuitively get the social contract (what I outlined in your thread). It seems we don't feel that , but constructed an abstract way of penetrating the behavior.

What do you think?



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30 Jun 2012, 1:06 am

Mdyar wrote:
A lack in theory of mind by someone on the spectrum indicates a problem with communication, such as: 1) body language 2) language 3)emotional reciprocity. A lack in a "B" has a disadvantage in what? By a nurturing in a homogeneous group leading to a lack in social imagination - completely insular. His deficit is cultural, you could say. Right? Wouldn't we have two of similar ilk?

A true A would not have cognitive issues.


Perhaps I misunderstand. In that example, the B was reading into what the A was saying, interpreting hidden meaning in the A's straight-forward questions. It would seem that the B is NT, and the B has ToM according to the way it's defined, but the B can't fathom that sometimes a cigar is a cigar. Which leads me to believe ToM is really Theory of Neurotypical Mind.

Person B was interpreting A's questions based on the hidden meaning B would have inserted had he been asking them instead. So B is assuming A must think just like him. In reality, A was being straight forward. In this sense, the very-NT seeming B lacks ToM beyond his own. Because so many may think like he does, his mindset is no different from the majority, but he fails to even ponder that there could be different mindsets. Person A may also be lacking a ToM in not understanding his questions might be interpreted by some as having second meaning, but in those examples, Person B was doing the interpreting, so its Person B who lacks ToM in regards to how A thinks.

And what exactly is a "true A" ?

Mdyar wrote:
In this thread, I think you are hunting into what side of the theory mind spectrum you fall into. If you cognitively get it, but emotively fail to grasp or comprehend it intuitively - with emotion- then you may fall into the spectrum of 'emotional reciprocity'. I fall into it the same way. If you're a Gifted NT, then you wouldn't have issues with empathy. Such ones 'know' but get along with the order. They intuitively get the social contract (what I outlined in your thread). It seems we don't feel that , but constructed an abstract way of penetrating the behavior.

What do you think?


When you say "get" the social contract, I take it you actually mean they naturally "abide by" the social contract. I think it's possible to understand it, but not accept it. I think that may be what you're saying about us both. But is it entirely a lack of emotional understanding on our part, or a lack of emotional understanding by those that abide by the social contract towards "deviants" like ourselves?



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30 Jun 2012, 3:30 am

Mdyar wrote:
If it's a flash of intuition( what I believe it is), then that intuition is a feeling.. The choice made is a surety, without doubt, about his judgement with Grandma.

He quickly deliberated on that scenario with conscious input, gauged against a flow chart already in place - an instinct. He projected himself into her persona and felt that for a surety, that to imagine what another person ( Grandma) would do, reading a chocolate bag.
The flow chart instinct: "It would be impossible for her to think anything but 'chocolate.'"


Weird.

Deserves more: The idea of being able to just know these things is somewhat alien to me. The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems." Admittedly, not difficult problems, but still necessary.



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30 Jun 2012, 3:52 am

again_with_this wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
The way all young NTs seem to be interested in drinking and dancing. Well, I used the word ''all'' because I don't know any better - I come from an NT family where all of my siblings and cousins are into the same thing: drinking and dancing.


With all due respect, Joe90, this is the sort of response I wasn't looking for, as I expressed in my OP.

Yours is an example of "Something I can see that NTs like, but I don't like."

I was asking about things that people do that you're not oblivious to, but go counter to you nature. Not just liking/disliking a social activity.


Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


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30 Jun 2012, 4:09 am

Joe90 wrote:
Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


OK, but this has nothing to do with what I was asking.



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30 Jun 2012, 5:39 am

Mdyar wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I am curious if NTs just know the answer automatically/intuitively. I can answer it correctly, but I have to think it through to be sure.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjkTQtggLH4[/youtube]

On the spectrum^
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0zTg65aaCY[/youtube]

Typical ^

It's pretty quick.




I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


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30 Jun 2012, 5:57 am

League_Girl wrote:
I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


This is an interesting observation. Personally, I'd probably have given the same answer as you, or something like, "she doesn't know what you put in the bag, so she'll assume it's chocolate." My answer would be specific to that bag, what I know about it, and what I understand she wouldn't know.

But to an NT, it's "a chocolate bag" (i.e. "because it's a chocolate bag, she will assume it's chocolate just like I would have"). And that's an instinctive response. This is a fascinating observation League Girl.

Where can I find the NT taking the Sally-Anne test, and the crayons/candle test?



Joe90
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30 Jun 2012, 8:22 am

again_with_this wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Well I do want to go out and socialise with a group but at the same time I don't know why youngsters like doing it so much.


OK, but this has nothing to do with what I was asking.

I know, just thought I'll say anyway. I wrote a more relavent post on your thread a few pages back.


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30 Jun 2012, 11:27 am

again_with_this wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I found it interesting how an NT child answered why his granny would think there is chocolate in the bag. I would have thought "because she wasn't here when you showed me what was in the bag" but the boy said "because it's a chocolate bag." I noticed the same pattern with the Sally Ann test when an NT took it and when someone did the same text using the crayon box and it had candles in it instead. Makes me wonder if our neurological brain wiring would make us answer the question differently to "Why would she think there is chocolate in this bag" while a typical person would say "because it's a chocolate bag?"

But I know the right answer now and will say next time "because it's a chocolate bag." :wink:


This is an interesting observation. Personally, I'd probably have given the same answer as you, or something like, "she doesn't know what you put in the bag, so she'll assume it's chocolate." My answer would be specific to that bag, what I know about it, and what I understand she wouldn't know.

But to an NT, it's "a chocolate bag" (i.e. "because it's a chocolate bag, she will assume it's chocolate just like I would have"). And that's an instinctive response. This is a fascinating observation League Girl.

Where can I find the NT taking the Sally-Anne test, and the crayons/candle test?



It's somewhere on youtube.


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30 Jun 2012, 11:42 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLubgpY2_w[/youtube]

Skip to 2:42

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGSj2zY2OEM[/youtube]

Skip to 2:09


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30 Jun 2012, 3:40 pm

again_with_this wrote:
And what exactly is a "true A" ?

I think we know this:
There are no absolute A's. Human behavior is all relative, as some possess greater ability.
Mdyar wrote:
In this thread, I think you are hunting into what side of the theory mind spectrum you fall into. If you cognitively get it, but emotively fail to grasp or comprehend it intuitively - with emotion- then you may fall into the spectrum of 'emotional reciprocity'. I fall into it the same way. If you're a Gifted NT, then you wouldn't have issues with empathy. Such ones 'know' but get along with the order. They intuitively get the social contract (what I outlined in your thread). It seems we don't feel that , but constructed an abstract way of penetrating the behavior.

What do you think?


Quote:
When you say "get" the social contract, I take it you actually mean they naturally "abide by" the social contract. I think it's possible to understand it, but not accept it. I think that may be what you're saying about us both. But is it entirely a lack of emotional understanding on our part, or a lack of emotional understanding by those that abide by the social contract towards "deviants" like ourselves?


Quote:
But is it entirely a lack of emotional understanding on our part,


Ah, but do you or did you ever feel the innate need to copy those around you? Emotional Empathy anyone? You bet. A want in Cognitive Empathy? Nope, no problem here. Is this an entirely bad thing? Absolutely not. Do we commit crimes via this? No.

The unconscious agreement about how we should behave towards one another is, in the end, enforced as much by empathy as by the fear of punishment. Most of us have a powerful need to belong to the group and our ability to imagine ourselves in one another's shoes, to recognise others as people like ourselves, is just as fundamental a human trait as is selfishness and greed.



Last edited by Mdyar on 30 Jun 2012, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Jun 2012, 5:19 pm

Mdyar wrote:
Most of us have a powerful need to belong to the group and our ability to imagine ourselves in one another's shoes, to recognise others as people like ourselves, is just as fundamental a human trait as is selfishness and greed.


Both A and B are doing this, just not with the same theory of mind.

A thinks, "I wonder if B is going the party. I'll ask directly. I'd appreciate directness, so I'll assume B does too. And maybe B will like the fact that I've taken an interest."

B thinks, "A is asking me if I'm going to the party because he wants me to go with him. That's why I'd ask, so it must be what he's getting at with that question. I better make it clear I don't want to go with him."

Who is failing to empathize with the other? Are they both failing to empathize with one another, or do they have a different sense of what empathy is.

Please explain.



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30 Jun 2012, 8:15 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Weird.

Deserves more: The idea of being able to just know these things is somewhat alien to me. The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems." Admittedly, not difficult problems, but still necessary.


Quote:
The idea of intuitively knowing things is not, but I have to work these out as if they were mathematical "word problems."

Very interesting Verdandi ( notice the no reference to Venus here? :lol: Just kidding )

I recall very early in school the intense feelings of not knowing what to do - for example, if they asked of me something( which I knew they eventually would) - that I couldn't deliver - hence a dissonance; an anxiety stemming from a confusion of a sense that I lacked some type of instinctual sense.
The puzzling thing about this is that my performance in the areas of common sense has vastly improved. I believe I get an intuitive signal, now, based on a history of trial & error.

Curious: Have you improved on your end?