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flyingkittycat
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08 May 2010, 2:35 pm

pandd wrote:
wblastyn wrote:
Evolution is a branching tree, not a hierarchy. There's no such thing as "less evolved". Neanderthals were just a different species of human, they weren't lesser. Perhaps they didn't really die out, maybe they became assimilated into homo sapiens?

I am not claiming that "less evolved" exists other than conceptually. Why did you think I took the time to type in quotation marks around the phrase if not to imply that the commonly accepted meaning of the phrase is dubious in reality?

The fact remains that we all must deal with the wider public perception of AS and unless there is some good reason (aka substantive evidences supporting the proposition) to construe that AS is caused by left over Neanderthalic DNA, then I would rather not put this idea into the minds of the wider public.

alana wrote:
I have spiritual beliefs that are in contradiction to the way that some people interpret evolution and natural selection (this is in response to the 'post about 'atavisistic' traits). So it doesn't matter to me about atavistic traits or that label because those people who are doing the labeling are clearly morons.

Does being morons make their eugenic activities any less catastrophic to the targets? My understanding is that morons or not, when it comes to eugenics, human beings are more than capable of "getting their game on". Just ask anyone with Down's Syndrome, although finding such a person is becomming increasingly harder as many of the "morons" choose to not let them be born.


Couldn't have said it better.

I don't buy the theory that we're neanderthals. Just more garbage.



alana
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08 May 2010, 8:20 pm

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Does being morons make their eugenic activities any less catastrophic to the targets? My understanding is that morons or not, when it comes to eugenics, human beings are more than capable of "getting their game on". Just ask anyone with Down's Syndrome, although finding such a person is becomming increasingly harder as many of the "morons" choose to not let them be born.


well, I don't have to, I'm gay, if they find the 'gay gene' you can bet gays/trans, etc will be on the list as well. For *this* time and *this* place. I'm not sure that is preventable but the energy will be somewhere in the universe if not here, possibly somewhere better.


also downs is on the upswing probably due to delayed parenting according to this article http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_Parentin ... id=9216796



Ofaelan
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08 May 2010, 10:35 pm

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The Neanderthal theory is positing that traits currently deemed undesirable by most people, are an atavistic "throw back" to what is currently very much widely thought of as a "less evolved" and worse "unfit", "redundant", "failed to make the grade" life form. The average person hearing that is going to think AS is not just a difference, but a disorder resulting from having defunct DNA from a less evolved, less human species. Furthermore, it's difficult to see precisely how such a conclusion would be wrong if incidents of Autism are simply freak occurences of Neanderthalism.


Only if one considers post-Neanderthal developments to be "progress"! Most First- and Second-World people today do, of course, but sometimes I wonder.... :wink:



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09 May 2010, 12:01 pm

One parent has dark brown eyes, the other has light blue eyes. One possible combination in the offspring might be hazel eyes with a blue tint. The blue allele is attempting to express itself but get's somewhat squashed by the dark brown allele. Same thing happens if you take light blue paint and mix it with just a little dark brown. It doesn't take much of the brown to change the blue to dark brown. Sometimes, both genes appear to show dominance even if one is blue and one isn't, thus, resulting in hazel. We don't know for sure what makes a gene dominant or reccessive. Blue eyes might be capable of dominancy in some circumstances. There's still plenty about genetics science hasn't figured out.



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09 May 2010, 2:15 pm

Ofaelan wrote:
Only if one considers post-Neanderthal developments to be "progress"! Most First- and Second-World people today do, of course, but sometimes I wonder.... :wink:

I think you will find that the average person on the street does indeed believe that post Neanderthalic developments constitute very significant progress.



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09 May 2010, 2:26 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
One parent has dark brown eyes, the other has light blue eyes. One possible combination in the offspring might be hazel eyes with a blue tint. The blue allele is attempting to express itself but get's somewhat squashed by the dark brown allele. Same thing happens if you take light blue paint and mix it with just a little dark brown. It doesn't take much of the brown to change the blue to dark brown. Sometimes, both genes appear to show dominance even if one is blue and one isn't, thus, resulting in hazel. We don't know for sure what makes a gene dominant or reccessive. Blue eyes might be capable of dominancy in some circumstances. There's still plenty about genetics science hasn't figured out.

If someone has hazel eyes, then it is construed that they do not have blue eyes for the purposes of the proposed inheritence model for blue eyes.

We actually do know at least one reason an allele may act recessively in some trait, in respect of another allele is because the effect of one allele can "mask" the observable effects of another. In the ABO blood group for instance, the effects of O are "masked" by the effects of either A or B and hence it is construed as recessive to both A and B which are co-dominant to each other (if A and B co-occur they are both observably expressed).

I recognize that there is uncertainty and are exceptions which is why I took the trouble to qualify statements with words such as "proposed", "considered" "in theory" etc.



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09 May 2010, 11:43 pm

Ok, So as of the past week it has now been proved that people outside of Africa have 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. There is still more work to be done on this research and they need a bigger sample group but it is certainly very interesting and I'm sure more research will be done.

Re: Blue eyes - as far as I remember blue eyes originate from a genetic mutation many years back and is believed to have originated from one common ancestor(maybe blue eyes weren't so recessive then?). This was somewhere in Eastern Europe and may have been more recent than the Neanderthals. The fact that blue eyes have managed to survive and spread so far is put down to their uniqueness way back when they were less common therefore more attractive. Anyway anyone interested can research this . Here's a start:

I can't post a link so search under 'Genetic mutation makes those brown eyes blue' and 'Geneticists Uncover the Origin of Blue Eyes'



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10 May 2010, 2:48 am

Beebron wrote:
Ok, So as of the past week it has now been proved that people outside of Africa have 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. There is still more work to be done on this research and they need a bigger sample group but it is certainly very interesting and I'm sure more research will be done.

Re: Blue eyes - as far as I remember blue eyes originate from a genetic mutation many years back and is believed to have originated from one common ancestor(maybe blue eyes weren't so recessive then?). This was somewhere in Eastern Europe and may have been more recent than the Neanderthals. The fact that blue eyes have managed to survive and spread so far is put down to their uniqueness way back when they were less common therefore more attractive. Anyway anyone interested can research this . Here's a start:

I can't post a link so search under 'Genetic mutation makes those brown eyes blue' and 'Geneticists Uncover the Origin of Blue Eyes'


I need to read that article because if there is no neanderthal dna in africa presently it could really throw the whole 'journey of man' y chromosomal adam spencer wells theory out the window. it would be so completely awesome to find out that tribes migrated out of africa and met up with some neanderthal stragglers after the fact, I would love a monkey wrench like that to chew on. but my imagination is probably already running wild so I just need to read it and it's probably something a whole lot more boring that explains it.



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10 May 2010, 2:16 pm

With the new study it is now clearly possible to both prove and disprove the Neanderthal theory. All it costs is a lot of money. To disprove it 48,000 dollars would do. All that is needed is to create a full genomic sequence for an Aspie, and make sure the DNA correlates the same with Neanderthal as the already analysed french individual. Of course, if this is not the result, there is a high probability that the theory is correct. To really prove it it would require to sequence more than one individual (I'll say five Aspies and five NTs). That would cost 480,000 dollars.

So, if some really wealthy Aspie want to "kill-off" the theory as soon as possible, just donate 48,000 dollars for the procedure. :wink:

I'm pretty sure somebody will do this in the near future, and I would prefer if it was an Aspie, and not an NT. There is also the race against genocide against autistics to factor-in. The current genetic autism research, which is really poorly done, threatens to start a genocide on autistic traits. I think it would be an advantage if there is research that can link common personality-traits to the Hn genome before the genocide-tests are ready.



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10 May 2010, 2:53 pm

wendigopsychosis wrote:
I know, I know. I wasn't being serious, I was just trying to think up a quick example showing how just because white people have something, and neanderthals and caucasians interbred, it doesn't mean that the traits came from neanderthals.


Well, this is not what the current study claims. It claims that all non-African groups have 1-4% Hn ancestry while africans have none. This is exactly the same result as Aspie-quiz have come up with. The only outlier group is africans. There are some minor differences in non-africans as well in Aspie-quiz, but these are so minor that they require huge samples (close 100,000) to find, and I don't anticipate these would be detectable with their sample of five full genomes.



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10 May 2010, 2:59 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Basically the idea is that some forms of autism are the result of maturational delay in males and maturational acceleration in females. Both these forces are believed to cause variance in a given species at a far quicker rate than if you simply wait for mutations and natural selection. Andrew Lehman (the purveyor of this theory) also believes that he has an answer for the 4:1 male / female autism ratio.


There is no 4:1 ratio,and the theory is nearly as narrow as other autism theories, and thus cannot explain more than a small minority of autistic traits.



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10 May 2010, 3:07 pm

Poke wrote:
The "Neanderthal theory" is obviously ludicrous. "Neanderthal genetics" could possibly be the source of some neural dysfunction, but it is certainly not the primary or sole source of neural dysfunction.


The Neanderthal theory is not about "neural dysfunction". It is about functional traits turned into dysfunctions by a majority-group trying to eradicate diversity.



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10 May 2010, 3:50 pm

Beebron wrote:

Re: Blue eyes - as far as I remember blue eyes originate from a genetic mutation many years back and is believed to have originated from one common ancestor(maybe blue eyes weren't so recessive then?). This was somewhere in Eastern Europe and may have been more recent than the Neanderthals. The fact that blue eyes have managed to survive and spread so far is put down to their uniqueness way back when they were less common therefore more attractive. Anyway anyone interested can research this . Here's a start:

That's quite an interesting read; the last time I read material about blue eyes, they had not yet discovered corresponding genetic material.
alana wrote:
I need to read that article because if there is no neanderthal dna in africa presently it could really throw the whole 'journey of man' y chromosomal adam spencer wells theory out the window.

How so?
rdos wrote:
The Neanderthal theory is not about "neural dysfunction". It is about functional traits turned into dysfunctions by a majority-group trying to eradicate diversity.

The majority group are not the cause of my sensory issues. If I make contact with a drop of water it hurts, a lot. Pain exists for a purpose and that purpose is undermined when pain manifests itself in response to stimulus that is non-injurious and has no prospect of being injurious. A drop of water has no prospect of harming me; I am not the Wicked Witch of the West (contrary to any rumours that may circulate from time to time), and I find it unlikely that Neanderthals melted on contact with water either.



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10 May 2010, 5:15 pm

rdos wrote:
Poke wrote:
The "Neanderthal theory" is obviously ludicrous. "Neanderthal genetics" could possibly be the source of some neural dysfunction, but it is certainly not the primary or sole source of neural dysfunction.


The Neanderthal theory is not about "neural dysfunction". It is about functional traits turned into dysfunctions by a majority-group trying to eradicate diversity.


I don't know anything about "Neanderthal theory"--and I don't have to. Autism describes neural dysfunction. All I have to do is ask myself, "Is it feasible that Neanderthal genes are the primary source of neural dysfunction?" The answer is obviously no.

*By the way, your response doesn't even make sense. The Neanderthal theory is not about "neural dysfunction". It is about functional traits turned into dysfunctions... Think about that for a minute.



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10 May 2010, 6:37 pm

pandd:

there is an article somewhere on this site concerning blue eyes, I think it talked about having found the time of the genetic mutation.

re: Spencer Wells I'm not clear yet on what the article means by no DNA in Africa, modern Africans, whatever. It seems like they meant the interbreeding took place before the migration out of Africa then that group left, it would only affect the y chromosomal Adam stuff if a hominid group existed outside africa and interbred with that group that left I guess. I'm really curious now to see if the interbreeding may have been a reason for the migration itself, one article I read said that homo sapiens might have very possibly had a role in the extinction of the neanderthals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7886477.stm (the last part of the article)

it says at that point (this article was written before the current findings suggesting the 1-4%) they'd mapped 60% of the genome, 3 billion characters, over three years. I don't know the genetic science behind autism but if such mapping is going on and autism can be correlated definitively to a gene then it seems like this theory is proveable or disproveable.



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10 May 2010, 7:13 pm

alana wrote:
pandd:
re: Spencer Wells I'm not clear yet on what the article means by no DNA in Africa, modern Africans, whatever.

Yeah, that BBC article is a bit vague.

I was going to fetch you a link to a much more useful (and clear) article (provided by another poster in a different thread), but I see you've already found that thread yourself. :wink:



Last edited by pandd on 11 May 2010, 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.