The lack of NTs' feedback mystique

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Janissy, that's exactly what I mean. A generation ago, only the rich had access to houses that had ramparts for wheelchairs (their own private chalets). Nowadays it's unthinkable that not everyone should enjoy this "priviledge". It's nowadays a right and not a priviledge. Same with feedback to Autistics: it shouldn't be a priviledge only for those lucky Autistics with access to saint parents and blessed professionals. It has to be made inappropriate to block feedback from Aspies. Same as it's inappropriate anymore to block access to a building for a handiccaped person. NTs have all these new rules all the time of what's appropriate and inappropriate, we must make use of that to receive the feedback we deserve.

And "he didn't answer my question about the game when I asked him" is enough feedback to start an Autistic in the right direction. The way it is today, we keep learning "social skills" and having no idea for decades which of the social rules we are transgressing and is getting us to fail socially all the time.

If architects and engineers can plan ramparts for wheelchairs, with the added work and cost to all involved, NTs can do a little work to give a little feedback to Autistics rather than call them jerks.

Re your second point, it goes without saying that the NT should be made aware that the person is Autistic.

This is not a valid analogy. You can pass a law that requires handicapped ramps to be installed on every new building. You can't pass a law that requires people engaging with disclosed Aspies to constantly give them feedback.

You can, however, raise awareness about AS and do everything that you can do teach people how to be more accepting of people. That's the only way you are going to get any sort of change... through awareness.

Yes, exactly. At the moment, very few NTs have the faintest idea what "asperger's syndrome" means, let alone what it implies about social protocol knowledge. To be fair, the DSM has only had it listed for less than a generation. Also, since knowledge of social protocol is usually unconscious for NTs, the nature of the feedback is bound to be spotty at best since many people don't actually know what rule has been broken, just that they have suddenly been made uncomfortable. Also, the giving out of protocol rules by anyone not in a parent>child or teacher>student relationship is itself a breach of protocol. That unconscious rule would have to change which will take a lot of doing. I have a friend (mildly Aspie) who has taken to saying, "tell me if I'm talking too long"- exactly the sort of thing we're both advocating here. Even so, and even though I have a daughter who also needs these things spelled out, I have to really internally struggle to tell her. I consciously work to get over this hurdle and tell her but everything in me screams "DON'T ASK HER TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT. THAT WOULD BE VERY RUDE OF ME!!" So even though she's ASKED me to do this, I have to fight the very strong social protocol rule that says "NEVER tell somebody the exact nature of what they're doping that's bugging you". That's a pretty strong social rule, followed by all polite people (the ones most likely to be inclined to help out in the first place) and giving feedback requires breaking it. So that's a major hurdle in itself.

Major hurdles:

1)unlike wheelchairs, which make it bluntly obvious that somebody can't get up stairs, not knowing social rules is an invisible problem that will only become visible as more people share their Aspie diagnosis and explain what that entails instead of just being angry at NTs for not innately knowing

2)Nts aren't aware of the social rules they themselves follow. I've been astounded at anthroplogy books that point out things in my own (American) culture that I had no idea were social conventions I myself was following until an anthropologist wrote a book about it. And until I forced myself to make it conscious to help my daughter. This hurdle will only be overcome once NTs realize that they themselves are following these codes, which only happens after Aspies say "I am noit follwoing these codes- tell me what they are" which must follow the breaking down of hurdle#1 spelled out above.

3)The spelling out of social rules that somebody has just broken is itself a breach of social protocol. An NT who gives this requested feedback must get over the intense feeling that they are being rude. Because they ARE being rude under current protocol. Lots of people don't mind being rude and in fact relish it. But these people who like being rude are the ones least likely to want to help an Aspie. (And their feedback will be cruel.) The ones most likely to want tohelp an Aspie are also the ones most likely to not want to hurt any feelings and have spent their entire lives to date following the rule that you NEVER tell somebody they shouldn't have done that. Their own politeness prevents them from being truly helpful. What a catch 22!

4)Like you said, it's easy enough to mandate building ramps. Trying to mandate that people give the Aspie's in their midst feedback and social protocol lessons would lead to...well, not a society I'd want to live in because that verges on thought police. However, something that is more feasable (and not so dictatorial) is Social Pragmatics classes. Currently, only anthropologists and speech therapists seem truly versed in these rules (and only the speech therapists know how to teach them- my daughter has that in speech class). If teaching this became an actual field, that would help a lot. It might be something that auties who have "cracked the code" could be good at too. I read an article about a preschool program for autie kids with some autie teachers on staff. They really get it. So that's something that could work.

In the meantime, tell people in your world that you are Aspie and what that means. And read books by anthroplogists. They are non-judgmental professionals who make a living cracking social codes that NTs don't even realize they are following.

Thirty years ago it was rude to ask someone not to puff out the smoke of their cigarette on you. This changed pretty much overnight, and it's been decades since the opposite is the rude thing.

NTs have to be taught to lose at least a bit of their fear of truth, if only for the sake of Autistics at a first stage. And then, for their own health.

I've gotten a little feedback from people. I perseverate, speak too much or at the wrong time, don't change topics fast enough, ask too many questions and worst of all don't do small talk.

Even if I say nothing or very little and am willing to go along with the suggestions of others.....invariably I'm rejected or left out of conversations.

So....while I think NTs have to come up with some reason to justify rejecting us, to their own satisfaction, it doesn't come close to explaining it. In other words, they may be quite clueless as to why they are uncomfortable around us.

I think they reject us because we are wired differently. They can sense that we are wired different and we do everything, or a great deal of everything, differently from them. They're uncomfortable around us because they don't know what to expect from us. They don't know how to categorize us. Everyone has to take their proper place. But they don't know what to do with us. After a reasonable amount of pondering, they give up and throw us away. We are dismissed. As not worth the effort to figure out.

It's not so much they don't like us as they don't know how to make us fit, or help us to fit. And everything has to fit.

I think that part of it is that NTs are tuned to gain most of their information from the eyes and face of the other person.

The human face is actually what defines social identity and allows one person to be distinguished from another. The human face is essential to social communication. If it wasn't, NTs wouldn't be constantly worried about how they look and facial disfigurements wouldn't be socially disabling.

If for some reason, the other person doesn't deliver the non-verbal facial cues the NT expects, the NT may feel uncomfortable. If someone's face has "flat affect" it's harder for the NT to read emotionally. It's important to read the emotions in a face so questions such as:

"Is this person my friend, or will this person be hostile and attack me?"

Can be assessed.
If the answer to the question is ambiguous because the facial signals being given out are ambiguous, the NT won't give the other person the benefit of the doubt or hang around to find out. It's a gut reaction, a survival mechanism. I'm not totally immune from it either. This is possibly why some people feel anxious, even around harmless clowns: the make-up obscures the clown's true facial expression.

If an AS person cannot deliver the right non-vebal cues voluntarily or sync up with the NT person's expressions, then the NT person may reject the AS person.

Hence the AS person may be saying all the right things culturally and be harmless, but be rejected because the other person doesn't feel socially safe.

The fear and miscommunication can be on both sides too.
The AS person may have difficulty reading the NT person.

Last edited by AmberEyes on 03 Jun 2009, 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

In my experience, though, it can be quite astonishingly difficult to actually get most NT people to understand just how clear you need things to be made. As you say, social rules/reading moods and non-verbal cues/etc. are so deeply instinctive to a non-autistic person that it's very hard for them to believe that anyone could miss, or fail to understand, what to them was so obvious. When you say, "Please make things clear to me," or, "Please tell me when something is wrong, because I probably won't 'just know',"they usually still continue in much the same way as they have been doing, because, to them, they are being clear.

This feels so right. I think you have nailed it, and better than I did though I am an NT and trying to write helpfully from that perspective. I wrote some lengthy posts about the unconscious nature of social protocol and how NTs can't give appropriate feedback unless they have conscious knowledge of that protocol, which is not common. Others replied to me that they were given what seemed to be appropriate feedback from NTs and they tried to act on it but things still went wrong. And I think you have correctly identified exactly what went wrong. There is some sort of phenomenon (I can't remember it's name) where people will give a logical, rational yet completely false reason for why they did something because they don't have the faintest idea why they did. It was discovered that people who have been hypnostised will follow the post-hypnotic suggestion (for example, "put on a coat when I say 'boo'") but make up some logical reason why they did it after the fact (they'll say they put on the coat because they were suddenly cold). I think that's happening here. NTs may give the requested feedback but it may very well be completely wrong and they don't even know it because the thought "your face didn't move the right way" is never going to go through an NT's conscious mind but instead they'll say something that FEELS right but isn't such as "I thought you were ignoring me".

This feels like such a sad impasse because where do you go from there? There is another thread speculating that some actors may be aspies (Dan Akroyd, for example). The theory is that the scripted nature of the interactions feels right. Goodness knows my own daughter is a major fan of scripts. (I'm on this forum because of her, not myself, but this thread seemed like a place I might have something helpful to say). This whole thread has been about things that NTs do and how they should spell out these things for the sake of Aspies who would like to do them also so as to have smoother social interactions. But what if it really is more about facial expressions than things that were said or done? Who teaches that? Who is even aware of that? But the acting thread gives the answer. Drama teachers teach that. Or at least, I hope they do. It may be that an NT drama teacher just assumes all the drama students will know what "your character is sad, think of something sad so you will look sad" implies. But it might be worth looking into drama lessons just to find out. After all, Dan Akroyd seems to have learned just how to move his face in the expected ways.

Janissy, thank you for your eloquent and lucid posts. This whole thread has been very informative.

This caught my attention, because (at least for me, and I think for many on the spectrum) we do run conscious tape loops in many situations NTs don't. Not walking "left foot, right foot," but in simple conversation, for example. "Walk over....not too close...okay, stop here...smile....eye contact....now look elsewhere....new speaker, shift eye contact..." As a young girl, I practiced this *very* consciously. As an adult, the tape loop was solidified--I had a pretty good grasp on how to do it in a variety of situations, so I wasn't constantly refining my tape--and it became quite automatic, but always present. Always. It never, ever stops. It becomes second nature, but never natural, if that makes sense.

Edited to add: At least in situations where I run the tape. If I'm agitated or stressed or overwhelmed, I don't run the tape, I think, and this is what makes me seem insensitive or rigid or just plain "off."

But as I said, behind your back they're well lucid and conscious.

I have consciously told people things that have kept things working pretty well. One is that I can't read body language, which is true. I basically explain I don't even see it, it took my boyfriend some time to understand it. I also explained while I may convey body language its pretty meaningless.

Another thing I have told people for years is I tend to ramble. The thing is I can get so lost in what I am saying I can often catch myself.

My boyfriend is helping me with social situations as well. Nothing like a NT partner who wants to help and understand. The other fact is he noticed I have atypical emotional responses. I don't have flat effect, but I do act very differently.

The other thing he has done is make me aware of language issues I have. I can get caught on and repeat particular phrases or expressions, such as appologizing for everything.

He has helped alot because many of my issues are subtle. I can't catch them. Others however he cannot do much about. I have a habit of telling people about my issues since I have had success with it. Don't take these social oddities I have personally is what I tell people.

Exactly.
That thought does seem depressing.

I was thinking essentially the same thing.
To tell the truth, I feel uneasy, even thinking and writing about it because it's such a core human issue.


When people try and read a face they're trying to answer these two questions:

"Is this face human?"

"Can I trust it?"


These two questions are essential for survival and human social interaction.

If people see things they don't expect in the face or the answers come back ambiguous, they become afraid. People react can react fear of the unknown in many ways: usually the gut reaction is to flee or fight.

Thankfully, humans have invented and made use of other channels of communication other than non-verbal facial expressions: writing, sign language, visual art, touch, music and the voice.

So if it for what ever reason, it isn't possible to communicate using one channel, another can be used.

There's more than one way to communicate.

Of course. Partner, or parent, or boss or friend or any other NT. If one can, all of them can. The only difference is the level of interest in doing it, the level of social pressure to do it being a wonderful motivator. It's just a question of social trends, like with cigarettes and ramparts. One day bosses will be seen as villains if they fire you saying: "we just felt you didn't fit in" (without offering feedback on things you could do to be more pleasant to NTs), same as if they nowadays offered you a cigarette (which was unconceivable for him NOT to do just 30 years ago) or told handicapped people / gays / blacks / Jews / etc. not to bother apply.

Only we, the Autistics, are to blame for the lack of social pressure on NTs to accomodate us a little more like they do with the groups above mentioned. Only when Aspies start feeling they deserve it, will they stop saying "it's not possible" and there will be a positive change. For now, many Aspies are just content cramming their brains with irrelevant social skills rules that have nothing to do with their own particular way of upsetting/annoying/being unpleasant.

When an Aspie has accepted their Autism, they're strong enough not to fear listening to feedback.

I used to apologize for everything, and I didn't even realize I did it until my spouse pointed it out. It's often very useful to have someone NT around.

Probably for most of us, our facial cues are "off"-- inappropriate or lacking due to flat affect. But I think it goes far beyond facial expression. It's the pattern of our existence: It's in every nuance of the way we move and our body language; the way we think and process information; it's in our sensitivity and how we react to sensory stimuli; it's in our sense of humor; what drives/motivates us; how we see the world and our purpose in it; what we thrive on and what drains our energy; our values, priorities and preferences; it's in the basis of our self worth...who knows, it might even be in the way we smell [something like pheromones]. It's our entire beingness and consciousness. And to discriminate against us because we are different is just that--discrimination. And either it is recognized as such and determined to be illegal or we tolerate injustice. This bias against us is due to something we prefer not to change [and shouldn't have to] or are incapable of changing--very similar to bias against gender, race, religion, or sexual preference. Of course we can make minor alterations in our presentation, but we can't change the whole package because it's what we are.

Yes villains.

What if there were a parallel universe--where Aspies rule and NTs are in the minority. And in that universe it is we who discriminate against NTs and fire them from jobs because they don't fit in. They wouldn't be able to change what they are to fit our standards, any more than we can change to fit theirs. If NTs altered their behavior to comply with our social protocol, it probably wouldn't go over because we would sense they could never truly fit in. So they would be fired anyway, in spite of their best efforts. That is--until they demanded fair treatment--which would be inevitable.

A huge chasm of difference lies between us and to ask either side to change significantly, enough to fit in with a rigid social system, is to request the impossible. The differently abled in physical and sexual terms have been accommodated. Now it is our turn, for the differently abled neurologically to be accommodated.