Theory of Mind vs. Neurodiversity???

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I've become quite the pistol, haven't I.

I can vouch for this point. I have had trouble understanding people many times, to the point where I hardly even try anymore with strangers or people I meet for the first time. I just don't assume anything regarding what other people are thinking or feeling, except for family members and friends. Once I get to know someone, then I can start to "read" them, but still be wrong quite a bit. When I meet people for the first time, I try to assume nothing about what's going on in their mind.

I have found this Theory of Mind thread very interesting, have learned quite a bit and begun educating myself on the subject. One thing that I find inspiring about the TOM concept is that it comes very close to imagination. In other words, it seems to me TOM is like imagining someone else's mind. You might be wrong about their mind, but it still requires imagination. And, as Einstein said, imagination is more important than knowledge. So, shouldn't it be possible to teach someone TOM?

Lastly, I abhor the label "disabled." How am I supposed to explain the meaning of this to my son? Who the he!! am I to tell him what he can and cannot do, and who the he!! is society to tell him what he can and cannot do? Its just an all-around bad label.

Anyway, great thread. Hope I can contribute something intelligent or, at least, not wrong

I am another who's recently stumbled across the term "theory of mind." I posted about it in another thread:

Are Aspies more likely than NT's to seek out an intimate relationship with someone who reminds them of themselves, on a mental level, and perhaps physical as well?

I would say very much so. You have no idea how difficult it is to find a woman who thinks the way I do, and understands what I've been through. It seems everyone is living by completely different values, and it's tough.

That was what Simon Baron-Cohen thought when he constructed the AQ-test, and this is fundamentally flawed. There is no difference in imagination between NTs and Aspies, and nor is ToM related issues related to imagination. ToM is related to nonverbal communication, which includes no imagination at all, rather out-right interpretation of facial expressions.

I was confused by this, I don't remember any facial expressions involved in the "Sally-Anne" test for ToM. But then I remembered, it's not that AS/HFA kids simply fail the test, rather that they are usually older before they can pass it, compared to NT kids. So, perhaps it is that NOT innately understanding the nonverbal communications of those around you, delays the development of ToM? That would seem to make sense. Is that what you mean? But then I would think that maybe imagination might be somewhat involved when the AS/HFA kid does eventually "get it", whereas the NT starts life getting nonverbal clues that others feel and think in similar ways to him/her. I'm now thinking the real difference is in how we gain ToM, how long it takes us to gain it, and how much we later rely on it (or don't) in our lives.

Yes non verbal communication and ToM are related. Neuro functioning and pulse rate are related too.

ToM is much more than non verbal communication. People can be adept at using ToM of mind to reach conclusions about the thinking of people who they have never physically encountered.

Blind people are not particularly noted for lacking ToM which would be rather odd if ToM were as reliant on interpreting facial non verbal communication as you are asserting it to be.

This is interesting.

Do I have a theory of mind?
That depends on the situation that I'm in and the people that I'm with.

On a fieldtrip, I promptly removed my muddy boots before entering the hotel. Other people, more social than I, just walked through the hotel, boots still on, muddying the marble floor. They didn't seem to think twice about the amount of effort the hotel staff put into cleaning that floor. I always said good morning and "thank you" to the hotel staff in their native language, even when other people didn't. The staff always smiled back at me while I admired the shiny clean floor or one of their beautiful floral displays. I understood that the hotel staff would be angry and upset if anyone got mud on their nice clean floor. I also understood the amount of effort they put into making the place look habitable.

In this this situation, I think I had a better grasp of the theory of mind of the hotel staff from another country than my peers. My peers spoke my native tongue, but I could predict how they felt less easily than the hotel staff. My peers seemed to chatter far too fast for me to keep up.

Another time, I predicted someone's unconscious idea.
This person asked me why I was being organised and filling in a book on time.
I explained that I was being organised to make that person's life (and mine) easier.
The person then said that this thought had been just "bubbling to the surface" of her mind: she thanked me for being helpful making her aware of it.

It would be fair to say that I can sometimes be a bit one sided and go on about my own interests. I also struggle at small talk especially when people talk or use certain facial expressions too fast.
However, I don't think that I completely lack a "practical" theory of mind.
I can sometimes predict quite accurately how people will react to certain topics, objects and situations.
People have called me thoughtful and conscientious.

I think that someone who's conscientious must have a theory of mind of sorts.
Whether that theory of mind is right for every situation is another matter.

Or worse, knowledge of self.

One of my strongest memories is when I had the epiphany of self. Up until then there was no real understanding of a "me". I used the words I and me as referents to my particular blob of protoplasm, but there was no "self", I was just another thing in a universe of things. I was 18 when it hit me like a brick that I had a self separate from other people.

I still regularly forget that other people are distinct entities with intention and motives. I'm 53 and still have TOM issues.

it would also be interesting to understand how theory of mind develops.

little kids who are diagnosed with aspergers and given lots of assistance end up developing NT caliber theory of mind, right?

You're wrong on at least three counts here. First, there is, generally speaking, a difference in imagination between NTs and Aspies. Second, theory of mind issues are absolutely related to imagination. Third, nonverbal communication is closely related to theory of mind, and is a much more complicated matter than simply interpreting facial expressions.

Theory of who's mind?

What about so called "normal" people who are tricked by con artists and magicians?

Do they have an impaired theory of the trickster's mind because they are "socially distracted" by patter? Are they easily tricked by misleading social signals and therefore misconstrue intentions/positions of objects.

What about individuals who are so socially in tune with other people's charm or acting that they make false (but socially acceptable) assumptions about what's going on in another person's mind?

I don't think that everyone makes accurate assumptions about what's going on inside other people's heads. If that were true, there would be no disagreements and no trickery. Sleight of hand would not be possible if everyone was a perfect mind reader.

I think that while one can improve theory of mind, it's impossible to be perfected. AmberEyes made a good point...if we all had perfect TOM, we wouldn't be so tricked by con artists and magicians. Also, our relationships, both personal and romantic would never fail...we would never divorce, never fight and never get into arguments because we would all understand each other so well.

The fact is, when personal relationships fall apart, it's often due to both parties not being able to understand each other...so, in essence, we're dealing with less than perfect TOM skills in the general population. And half of all marriages end in divorce...that tells you something.