Bad manners, Good manners

Post Reply New Topic

Nodding my head here. There are so many damn stupid manner things, and I seriously hate being forced to modify my behavour to please people.

My mum is especially strict with this in restaurants, which I hate. She says it's because I'm "embarrassing" (go figure...). Thing is, I seriously don't see the point in trying to act "politely" for a bunch of strangers who won't give a crap anyway, and if they do, they'll forget it by the next day... So, what's the problem?

Idiots.

Oh i completely agree! It caused a lot of arguments for me cos i won't budge! Thankfully my father is not like that. He's more understanding.
I'm polite and respectful in general. But sod em!

Lol. Idiots Indeed!

Hello everyone, thank you for sharing your experience with manners. It has been very insightful reading all your thoughts on manners. etc. I am hoping you can give me some further perspective on this matter.

So my 9 year old daughter, Sophie, who has ASD, doesn't like eye contact or facing people when talking to them or them talking to her. She jumps into conversations interrupting others and hijacks the topic into what she wants to discuss. She's better at taking turns, but is still as patient as a toddler when it comes to waiting overall. She is an only child, and has a couple on-off friends at school. She gravitates towards the alpha-females, which also want to be in control which causes conflict. She desperately wants friends and to be liked, but despite how many times I reiterate it, the golden rule is totally lost on her. TOTALLY! I talk endlessly about manners and being nice to no avail. Trick or treating last night I had to remind her after every house to say thank you. If someone says "hi!" say "hi!" back. I keep trying to drill into her smile, make eye contact, and be friendly when greeting people. She doesn't get this. She comes across very rude and 80% of the time ignores people when they talk to her. I have constantly say "Sophie, this person asked you a question" or "this person said hello to you". Her IQ is normal and she is a bright kid and in the mainstream classroom (with an IEP) so she is capable, she just "forgets" she tells me. She's 9 now, and I don't know If I buy it anymore.

I am constantly conflicted about whether this is a behavioral deficit that needs to be punished or if it is because of her Aspergers and she really cannot grasp these social norms. I told her yesterday her whole life would change if she would make eye contact, smile and be friendly.

I was hoping you might give me some advice on how to deal with her. It keeps me up at night that she is so lonely and sad so much of the time because she has no friends. I desperately want to help her, I just don't know how.

I took to the Golden Rule like a duck to water, because it kept me out of so much unexpected trouble. It was like a basic principle in physics, but for people. With it, I didn't have to memorize a thousand rules; I could even predict them. However, I still felt that manners were dishonest and fake. Eventually, I realized that they are like speed limits and safety rails - they prevent mistakes from over-confidence. I just don't know how lousy a day somebody is having - maybe they are about to have a meltdown if I'm rude. I try to make manners a habit, like a rule of grammar. I know that my life goes a whole lot smoother when I'm polite. Benefits can range from less saliva in restaurant food to really valuable tips on where to live, work, and shop.

Thanks Dear One. Do you recall what age the golden rule kicked in for you? Do you suggest I keep harping on it? Should I discipline (by taking a dollar away from her earned allowance) her when she forgets?

Yesterday I discussed with Sophie the general theme I'm seeing in this thread - that manners are fake and dishonest. She totally agreed and added that they are very much so with adults. She said that kids aren't fake and will tell you what they really think. But adults hide their true feelings for the sake of manners, and to her this is wrong. *sigh*

I think if I had to fix this problem I'd try to focus on reward rather than punishment, and to let her make her own mistakes rather than trying to train her, but I'd always want to offer my support when she finds her social endeavours aren't working out, to talk over the details and suggest how it might have turned out better if she'd done this or that.


Her opinions sound very much like my own. I think with me the politeness thing came about very gradually over decades. My parents couldn't change me because they were too forceful about it while having big interpersonal problems of their own, so I couldn't really trust that they knew what they were talking about on social matters. Not that I'm suggesting you're like that.

Anyway, I had to learn the hard way from negative experiences with my peers - e.g. a couple of local kids I went to school with refused to travel with me any more because I was so rude to them. Even that took me years to fathom, at first I just didn't see I'd done anything wrong. But I didn't have anybody to do a post-mortem with - if my relationship with my parents had been better then one of them might have been able to calmly help me to do that, but I'm afraid when they heard about it they just got mad at me and got rather threatening and critical, and pretty much told me I'd been a bad boy and had better start being a good boy or else. What I might have found useful would have been something more on the lines of "sorry you're having problems with your friends, maybe you'd like to do a post-mortem and find out what went wrong there?"

I never was completely reconstructed, and I still feel somewhat hostile to the dishonest side of social stuff. I don't think that will ever go away completely. I tend to cope with it by sticking to unusual people who don't have so much of the usual "social hype" about them, and when I do follow the apparently empty and salesman-like ways of the mainstream, I comfort myself with a degree of contempt for them, it's like "yes they're fake, and they shouldn't be, but if I don't fake it back then they'll get unreasonably nasty, and anyway as they're fake they don't really deserve my honesty." I think a common problem when NTs try to help Aspies is that they try to suggest that the NT mainstream thing is somehow more laudable and better, which can alienate the Aspie. Not that there's no validity in suggesting that the Aspie changes a few things. Even between two Aspies, extreme bluntness and failure to be interested in the other person can be very hurtful.

Anyway, I hope this helps, and that I haven't projected my own experiences too much onto a situation that has little to do with them. Wouldn't be the first time.

Hi Sabreenah, I was two or three when I discovered the Golden Rule. It kept me out of trouble until I was 37, when I got thoroughly traumatized for treating a female roommate/friend in my preferred manner. (Not a girlfriend - She was paired when we met, and I always treated her like a daughter.)
The dishonesty of manners, especially for the emotionally immature, can seem quite unacceptable and counterproductive to the logical mind. One dodge is to regard "fine" as an acronym for "effed-up, insecure, nasty & emotional." Another is to amuse oneself by mumbling "Fairly suicidal, thanks" in a cheery tone of voice and never having anyone notice.
There are videos out of babies and monkeys spontaneously helping people pick up things they can't reach. We are a helpful species, in general. "Please" is short for "If it pleases you [to help.]" Can your daughter relate to that? How about "Thank you?" If she asked for something, she must be glad to get it?
You really can't answer many of her objections except by introducing manners as survival tactics. Telling a US policeman, international or domestic, what you think of him can be lethal. I used to drive across the border quite casually. Now, I won't even try.
Sure, manners are dishonest much of the time, but they are just an unusually sloppy approximation. Nothing is perfectly true except math. Humans are such a very mixed bag of nuts that only the loosest standards can make them seem to fit together.
Taking away an earned allowance is a fine. Adding to it is overtime, for doing extra stuff. Is she really in charge of her employment? I'd take it easy on the coercion. My mother was zero-flex on bedtime, and it has taken me all this time to see the benefits of one.

Oh my gosh, yes this helps immensely! I actually do vocalize my empathy with her much more than I reprimand her (when her behavior is good she gets a point reward $1). But as this hasn't seemed to be working I have questioned my niceness about it, and if she should lose something to drill the point home that way. My husband is convinced it's a lack of character and being an only child and frequently tells her she should act like a good catholic girl. He thinks catholic school would change her. Don't even get me going about how much I disagree with that...

Knowing how you guys think about this has been a real eye opener for me. All the so-called experts never talk about the why. I get it now. thank you so much for your feedback Sharing your own experience will help me to talk with my daughter about all this.

I'm sorry you went through such tough times as a kid. My NT self wants to reach out and hug you! But I realize that's probably the last thing you would want.

LOL! Yes, never speak your mind at the border! I cross frequently and you couldn't be more correct! hahaha

Thanks so much for your insight - I will take it to heart. I feel I have a new way to approach things now.

ps. I'm FINE can also stand for - F**ked up. Insecure Neurotic Egotistical.

I have another question that is probably off-topic but I would value all your opinions...

We have never told our daughter she has autism. Medically she has never been diagnosed but she has been in the school system where I live since 3 years old labeled as ASD. I've always just told her her brain is wired differently than most people. It gives her challenges socially and academically but it has gifted her with extreme creativity and artistic ability far exceeding most kids. I tell her everyone is different in their own way.

The reason we haven't told her are two-fold. 1. We don't want her to be labeled. She was denied entry to a private school because of her status despite her special needs teacher of 2 years telling them she would be fine in a regular classroom. Plus being labeled by her peers. I know when I was growing up kids on the spectrum were made fun of. And 2. I don't want her to use it as a crutch, a reason to give up when things get tough. An excuse to stop trying. I've always told her she can do anything anyone else can she just may have to work a little harder at it.

I've never known if not telling her is the right thing to do. She's 9 and at some point I'm sure she will figure it out. Will she mad at me for not telling her? I'm conflicted over the right thing to do. Thoughts???

Ah, yes, that's the acronym I was probably trying to remember.
I didn't interact much with my parents. I thought we were all pretty isolated, and that manners were necessary to avoid fighting among critters that evolved as nomads and were now crammed together in cities.
You might try turning off your own manners for more of a heart-to-heart sometimes. I quit asking my mother for advice very early, when I was frustrated with a drawing. The honest answer would have been "I'm too busy cooking to figure it out now, but I'll help after dinner." Instead, she said "That's nice." I never trusted her again. Father was just as reliably negative, because I was not yet a man, and he couldn't relate.
There was one AS boy who was barely verbal, and quite a PITA overall until one day, his older brother snapped, and lifted him high overhead, throwing him full force into a snowbank. Then it dawned on him that others had feelings and reactions, and he became much more reasonable.
There were no special programs or even recognized Aspies when I was young, so I can't help with navigation there. I would not want to be in half the programs I hear of. There is far too much emphasis on "You can do anything" instead of "You can do some things so well, you can trade for help on the stuff you are hopeless at."
I'd tell her, instead of letting her wonder why some things are just incomprehensible to her. Unfortunately, most people assume that with an IQ of 150, one can understand anything, but if it is paired with an EQ of 50, one can spend all day trying to see something most people would know automatically.

Well, my attitude to touch is a long story for another thread, but I appreciate the gesture and the empathy behind it. My childhood wasn't all that bad compared with what a lot of kids go through, so overall I count myself as one of the lucky ones.

I'm a youngster, and most people in my generation care more about being socially savvy than being polite--as in having lots of friends and keeping up with them. I think we're the first generation not to worry about manners.