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petitesouris
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17 Apr 2010, 4:22 pm

i very much value life and so do many religions, yet the quality of one's life is also important. if a fetus has severe birth defects and genetic illnesses, the happiness of the child is not really in the control of his or her family.

anyways the pro choice vs. pro life arguements are really frustrating since they are so politicized that instead of objectively assessing someone's situation, these arguements are often used as an opportunity to bash the other side.



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17 Apr 2010, 4:30 pm

Michael_Stuart wrote:
But Callista, there are plenty of kids that do keep their child, even if it will ruin them financially. And even though this is a terrible choice, these people do have a choice. And there's another thing: How can you regulate reproduction? Can the government really tell who is allowed to reproduce, who can have children, who must have children? Maybe in China, but not in the real world.
Exactly. It's a terrible choice, and it should not be.

It was also a terrible choice to risk being put in prison to help a slave escape, or to risk ostracism or even death to come out as a homosexual, or to risk execution for acknowledging yourself to hold religious beliefs that the world around you didn't like.

If what we have now is an acceptable level of "choice", then pro-choicers simply aren't worthy of the name.

Descartes30 wrote:
If you don't like abortion, don't participate in it. But keep your nose out of other people's business. It isn't your choice, it isn't your fetus, your religious and moral views are not to be taken as correct just because it's you who thinks it.
Look at it from the perspective of those who acknowledge the fetus's basic humanity. You're asking us to ignore murder. Legal murder, yes; but if you see them as fellow human beings, how are you supposed to just sit there and not try to change things? If, for example, black people were declared non-human and could be freely killed, wouldn't you speak up and try to get the law changed? Well, then, I think a fetus is as human as a black person. Which is to say, as human as me.


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Last edited by Callista on 17 Apr 2010, 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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17 Apr 2010, 4:32 pm

Callista wrote:
That's true; I did forget that option. But adoption is so scary to many people nowadays that some wouldn't consider it. Women shouldn't be forced to put kids up for adoption any more than they should be forced to have abortions.


I absolutely agree, though I tend to think more of scariness from the other side. (I have a friend who paid the medical expenses of two pregnant women and had them both change their mind at the end.) I'm not sure what's so scary about adoption from the biological mother's standpoint, other than the fear of regretting it. I would never have chosen it myself, but not because of fear.

I think you need to have the right mindset to choose adoption and no one should be coerced into it; that applies to both the biological parents and the adoptive parents.


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17 Apr 2010, 4:34 pm

timeisdead wrote:
If we make abortion illegal in the first place, selfish parents who want to murder their own children as well as the doctors who perform abortions will be put behind bars. If you think this will only raise the child abuse rate, we can also up the penalties for child abuse. Only fear will keep these scumbags in line. Love and fear are the most powerful motivators. If love doesn't work, fear of legal repercussions certainly will.


No, no, no, no and no.

No one should be forced to stay pregnant and have a child against her will.

And please do not give out to me and say it is the person's fault for being irresponsible.

One - quite likely she WAS responsible and her birth control failed. Condoms can rupture, hormonal contraception fails, even surgical sterilization fails sometimes.

And two - even if she was irresponsible, it is not society's place to 'punish' her by forcing her to have the baby.


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17 Apr 2010, 4:39 pm

Well, here's the dilemma.

You have two people. One person's existence curtails the rights of the other person. But the only way to stop him from doing it is to kill him. Only problem is, he's completely innocent.

There is no way to solve this dilemma without hurting somebody. There is no perfect solution. There is only the solution that hurts both people the least, and it doesn't involve killing anybody.


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17 Apr 2010, 4:40 pm

timeisdead wrote:
If we make abortion illegal in the first place, selfish parents who want to murder their own children as well as the doctors who perform abortions will be put behind bars. If you think this will only raise the child abuse rate, we can also up the penalties for child abuse. Only fear will keep these scumbags in line. Love and fear are the most powerful motivators. If love doesn't work, fear of legal repercussions certainly will.


I don't think it's right to tell OTHER people what they can and cannot do. You don't own them, or their bodies.

I just want people to leave me alone and quit trying to control me, and to see people talk about controlling others even though it has nothing to do with me still pisses me off.


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17 Apr 2010, 4:43 pm

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I am pro-choice and I've had an abortion - I guess this makes me a "murdering scumbag" or something to OP. Unwanted pregnancy is a horrible thing, being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is even more horrible. I don't regret my abortion one bit. Even if you were able to successfully ban abortion - you'd have a bunch of unwanted kids in an already overpopulated world. I don't like the idea of eugenics, but I'd rather have less kids that are wanted then a bunch whose parents don't want them or can't deal with them plus the added benefit of torturing women with pregnancies that have a chance of killing them.


YOU ARE NOT A MURDERER, OR A SCUMBAG.

*hugs*

You had every right to abort something that wasn't even a sentient being. Don't let anyone tell you you did something wrong.

Myself, I would have an abortion no matter what, even if it was by the method of doing something horribly dangerous like deliberately falling from a height. I don't care, I'll cut the thing out of me if I have to. The idea of being pregnant and having the child, of being reduced to a mere baby machine, just revolts me almost to death.

Yeah, I have issues with that particular part of being a woman. I like my body with all its S-curves, but the idea of being a baby machine fills me with disgust and outright rage.


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petitesouris
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17 Apr 2010, 4:43 pm

Callista wrote:
Descartes30 wrote:
If you don't like abortion, don't participate in it. But keep your nose out of other people's business. It isn't your choice, it isn't your fetus, your religious and moral views are not to be taken as correct just because it's you who thinks it.
Look at it from the perspective of those who acknowledge the fetus's basic humanity. You're asking us to ignore murder. Legal murder, yes; but if you see them as fellow human beings, how are you supposed to just sit there and not try to change things? If, for example, black people were declared non-human and could be freely killed, wouldn't you speak up and try to get the law changed? Well, then, I think a fetus is as human as a black person. Which is to say, as human as me.


where can you really draw the line between living and not living anyways? there are some on the far right who claim that contraceptives and morning after pills are also abortion and murder (which i do not agree with), so the issue is really more complex than that.



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17 Apr 2010, 4:51 pm

Fo-Rum wrote:

I just want people to leave me alone and quit trying to control me, and to see people talk about controlling others even though it has nothing to do with me still pisses me off.


WORD.


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17 Apr 2010, 4:56 pm

Yes, where exactly DO you draw the line? At the point where a person can understand that they exist? That happens at about 18 months after birth. At birth or viability? How arbitrary is that?-- it's a definition of "life" that depends entirely on the advances of medical science. Or you could just go to either the point where twinning is no longer possible, or the separate genetic identity at conception...

We define the end of life as "the point where brain waves can no longer be detected, and cannot be re-started." Technically, that depends on medical technology too; really, the end of life is the point at which the information in the human brain can no longer be recovered. Since I doubt anybody is going to accept the point of self-awareness as the beginning of life, the next easiest is the point where the information that makes that human being unique comes into being--and that's either conception (for genetic information) or the generation of the first neurons (for brain-based information). Both of which exclude surgical abortion (the second does not exclude the morning-after pill).


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17 Apr 2010, 5:02 pm

willaful wrote:
timeisdead wrote:
If you don't want a baby, why not get your tubes tied? Just wondering


Not wanting a baby at a specific time in your life, or for some other reason, has nothing to do with never wanting a baby at all.

There is tubal ligation reversal you know...



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17 Apr 2010, 5:03 pm

It's not perfect, it's not always successful, and a reversed tubal ligation can increase the chance of ectopic pregnancies.

Getting your tubes tied is supposed to be permanent.


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17 Apr 2010, 5:04 pm

petitesouris wrote:
first of all, what exactly do you mean by "eugenic abortions". it all depends on the context.

there is no point of giving birth to a child with down syndrome or something like that because not only is it wrong to bring someone into the world if they are only going to suffer, but doing something like that would be a burden on society.

there is also the possibility that a child would be born with a terminal illness like HIV or cystic fibrosis. in that case, whether or not it is ethical to give birth to a child who is likely to have a very short, painful life, is debateable.

what does bother me is the possibility that parents are only going to abort for convenience (since one can always give a child up for adoption instead of aborting him or her), or even worse, that parents are only going to want to give birth to perfect children.

there is genetic research on autism, so that the genes for autism could be annihilated, which bothers me because there are still high functioning autistic people, who may be really smart and contribute a lot to society. yet apparently, even if you are in the high functioning range of the spectrum, in people's eyes you are no different from the cases that are depicted in the media.

not to simplify a very complicated issue, but i think abortion should only be legal if a) the child would be mentally disabled and b) the mother was raped and giving birth is a danger to her health.

i dislike the idea of killing fetuses, yet for example, there was one case where a 12 year old girl was raped by her abusive father and became pregnant with twins. not only were the twins likely to have genetic defects because of incest, but the girl most likely would have died from giving birth to twins, which means that both the mother and the children would have died. if i remember correctly, she had an abortion and the pope ended up excommunicating her.


I must say, I've met people with down syndrome, from what I've seen they can and do live happy lives when they are accepted for who they are the same as us on the Spectrum.

In Ireland, it is illegal to abort a child. Women wanting to abort a child usually travel to England or another European country to abort a child. Our legislation, as it stands is that "The life of the unborn is protected unless the life of the Mother is at risk".

To the OP, laws wouldn't stop abortion, it would simply revert to women using older methods, where women died as often as not. Why do you view parents as selfish if they judge themselves to not be good possible parents? I'm guessing that you are quite young.

But something else, if laws like that were to be put in place, how long do you think it would take until things like scratching your nose or passing gas would be part of draconian laws? It's clear to me that you don't understand a lot about life yet. I respect the life of the unborn but I also respect another persons right to choose, it is their life.

A big thing for me is, a person has the right to choose the direction of their lives path. If a person chooses to end a pregnancy, they will either be subject to similar pain as misscarrage or will not feel anything about it (not the usual emotional response) but don't judge another person until you understand their exact situation even then be tentitive because you are not them.



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17 Apr 2010, 5:06 pm

Quote:
But something else, if laws like that were to be put in place, how long do you think it would take until things like scratching your nose or passing gas would be part of draconian laws? It's clear to me that you don't understand a lot about life yet. I respect the life of the unborn but I also respect another persons right to choose, it is their life.
Dude. Slippery slope. You've got to prove it would actually lead to that, not just claim it inevitably would.


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17 Apr 2010, 5:06 pm

Callista wrote:
Well, here's the dilemma.

You have two people. One person's existence curtails the rights of the other person. But the only way to stop him from doing it is to kill him. Only problem is, he's completely innocent.

There is no way to solve this dilemma without hurting somebody. There is no perfect solution. There is only the solution that hurts both people the least, and it doesn't involve killing anybody.


I don't think a fetus counts as a person. Can it think? Does it have emotions?

Even if it were a 'person', I'd be in favour of abortion because no one has the right to use another's body for sustenance. If I'm hemorrhaging can I demand the use of another person's blood?


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17 Apr 2010, 5:07 pm

timeisdead wrote:
If we make abortion illegal in the first place, selfish parents who want to murder their own children as well as the doctors who perform abortions will be put behind bars. If you think this will only raise the child abuse rate, we can also up the penalties for child abuse. Only fear will keep these scumbags in line. Love and fear are the most powerful motivators. If love doesn't work, fear of legal repercussions certainly will.


Erm- fear hasn't done a damn thing when it comes to tackling the distribution and use of illegal substances, so how is that going to work for abortion? Chances are that there will be many people that will privately perform abortions or in depseration, perform an abortion on themselves. Same goes with the death penalty- have you noticed that it doesn't work in lowering crime rates?

Thing is that while I don't fully condone abortion, I don't think it's up to me to force people not to do it. Out of fear comes rebellion and resentment- it's not true respect towards someone. You get people to think differently about something, make a good case for your arguement and above all, stay patient and well mannered with people and they're more likely to take your points seriously.

People often conform to expectations; you call somebody a scumbag long enough, they'll accept it and learn nothing. You treat them with respect and with dignity and they will likely listen to you.