Long-Term memory

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Mosaicofminds wrote

It's really not that I assume they won't work for me. I just get
a bit overwhelmed when I see all the different alternatives and
start thinking about applying them. I have to approach things like
this in a very organized, structured and linear fashion. So your
advice here kinda read my mind, I made a list of all the suggestions
everyone on this thread offered (including yourself) and i'll surely
try each one (and maybe many more) BEFORE I start classes in Jan.





This is a good idea too but still, I think the it's critical for me to able to
retrieve much more information than I currently do without cues. Both in
school and life, I can't always depend on cues or triggers for my memory.
Still...this is a practical solution just in order to pass classes and I can practice
"cue-free" retrieval on my own within and without the academic milieu.





I think it might just be very relevant actually. I do realize that semantic/episodic
and procedural memory are totally seperate systems. I guess most of us who have
even taken psych 101 are familiar with the famous HM. Anyway...i'm wondering if
if one "executive" system might be broken instead of two different ones. I'm not
necessarily referring to executive functioning per se, (though executive functioning
is partially governed from the same area) but an area that might be fundamental
to ALL forms of memory, the cerebellar cortex. I have read that some of latest
research suggests that the cerebellar cortex is the "seat", or engram, of memory.


According to this research...an initial memory is formed here and then travels out
to the rest of the brain by way of the Purkinge cells and is then consolidated. So
i'm wondering if my own Purkinge cells/fibers or my cerebellar cortex/cerebellum
itself could be dysfunction in some way. There is little doubt I have executive
functioning problems and that has been clearly indicated on several of my
neuropsych evals. So if the cerebellum is partially responsible for executive
functioning and if the cerebellar cortex truly plays the "executive" role in
memory this recent research is suggesting, maybe that would mean the main
system is broken rather than two ancillary ones. I am certainly not qualified to
even speculate on this any further, but perhaps you might be. It just seems unlikely
that two seperate memory systems could be "broken" in the same brain unless
there was one cause responsible for their mutual breakage.


But this is where NVLD/white matter may come in, though this is just another
marginally educated idea i'm tossing around. As far as I know, there is white matter
present in or around all of the regions of the brain associated with memory. As I
said before, I know the Fibria region of the hippocampus is entirely composed of
white matter. So i'm wondering if the white matter impairment, absence, etc...in
my own brain (after all, I do fit the general NVLD charcteristics according to most
of my neuropsych evals and my own observations) could manifest themselves in the
long-term memory problems I believe I have. Byron Rourke's revised and expanded
white matter model is most likely responsible for the NVLD syndrome.

Now Rourke does claim that individuals who exhibit the NVLD syndrome can
have poor memories for "complex, meaningful and novel" VERBAL material
and the non-verbal/visual memory deficits more commonly associated with NVLD.
All I can say is that i've never encountered any fellow NVLD-ers (and i've
encountered countless online who are very detailed about their own problems)
who complain of any significant long-term memory problems, certainly not in
terms of verbal memory at least. In fact...much like those with Asperger's, most
claim to have normal, or even excellent, long-term memories.


Now there were many individuals who exhibited very extreme NVLD manifestations
in many of Rourke's case studies. But this had alot to do with IQ scores (which were
often in the low average or borderline range even for verbal IQ) rather than any
other factors. Nonetheless....maybe I am just an extreme and rare case in spite of
my substantially higher IQ scores. Maybe the right quality/quanity of white matter
involvement in areas associated with long-term memory is what makes my *case*
of NVLD extreme.

I'm not 100% sure I could rule out any partial or complete agenesis of
the corpus callosum as a possible cause of my memory issues, but that's
probably very unlikely. First of all...I believe i'd probably manifest some other
symptoms if that was the case, even physical ones. Secondly, I haven't heard of
ACC being associated with serious long-term memory problems. In fact, ACC may
have had a positive effect on the long-term memory of the late Kim Peek who had
complete agenesis of the corpus callosum. I don't think Peek was the only person
with ACC to exhibit a remarkable long-term memory either.

Anyway.....just some thoughts here and probably not very good ones. Still...
consider the results of my neuropsych evals indicate both executive
functioning problems and NVLD, I must consider the possibility that my memory
problems might be directly related to one or both of these issues. As I mentioned
in my other thread, (about the category test) the Category Test is supposedly the
best indicator of brain damage on the Halstead-Reitan neuropsych test batter. I
scored in the impaired range on the CT at the 1st%. So if the cerebullum is involved
in both memory and executive functioning, maybe that's something to consider.
Especially if some of the new ideas about the cerebellar cortex's foundational role in
all memory are valid.

So that's about it for this post....again I thank you for the memory strategies
here and I have these and everyone else's written down in a nice, organized
manner.

Mosaicofminds~


I should add that i've heard a few people with NVLD claim they
have memory problems and though they weren't specific, it
sounds like they were talking about long-term semantic and/or
procedural memory. Still...it didn't seem like their problems were
nearly as severe as I believe mine are, but I really don't know what
to say about that.


If I do have neurodevelopmentally-based memory problems, there is
much reason to believe they've been greatly exacerbated by the chronic
depression, anxiety and stress i've dealt with since childhood. Or perhaps
these things have even caused my memory problems entirely.

As i'm sure you know, there is good evidence to suggest that stress
hormones like cortisol and chronic depression can decrease hippocampal
volumes and perhaps cause significant memory problems. But once again,
the only issue I have with this is that I doubt any memory deficits which could
result from these factors would be as severe as I believe mine are.

Countless people deal with chronic depression and at least as much stress
as I have. I don't hear too many of these same people complaining of memory
problems as serious as mine may be.

OK, I definitely understand overwhelm. I hope something on the list helps.

Practicing memory retrieval in a context that won't affect your grade sounds like a good idea.

Interesting, I've actually never heard this theory about the cerebellum. It surprises me because if you take your description and replace the word "cerebellum" with "hippocampus," you pretty much get the mainstream theory that's taught in basic psych classes. I'm still looking this up, so I won't be able to comment right away.

"It just seems unlikely that two seperate memory systems could be 'broken' in the same brain unless there was one cause responsible for their mutual breakage."
Well, maybe...it's not uncommon for 2 systems in the brain to function abnormally at the same time (especially when comorbid disorders are involved). For example, autism research as a whole points to differences in face processing, emotion processing, frontal, cerebellar, language processing, and motion perception regions IIRC, not to mention differences in gray matter and white matter across the brain. In theory, genes, neurotransmitters, or specific regions that communicate with most of the rest of the brain could affect multiple brain systems. I don't know enough to speculate about memory in particular. I agree that agenesis of the corpus callosum is unlikely, given Kim Peek.

Do you have any good links to information about the Category Test? I'm still not sure exactly what it is or what it measures. Normally I'd look it up myself, but right now, there are many other things I'm supposed to be looking up instead. Thanks!

BTW--it sounds like you're comparing yourself to people with JUST NVLD, or JUST severe, chronic depression. As you said, just one of these probably wouldn't take out much memory, but maybe there's something significant about the combination? Especially if you were susceptible in some way to begin with?

I have a very good long term memory. I remember everything that's happened in my past, since I was 2, and I mean everything. The good times, the bad times, the rewards, the punishments, all the words that my parents ever told me. The time that my sister was born, and I had to share the house with my little sister. The songs I've heard on the radio. Liking 'David Watts' by The Kinks, better than 'Tell Me Why' by The Beatles, at the ages 4 and 5. The cartoons that I watched. Spider Man, and Loony Tunes, Tom and Jerry and Scooby Doo. Everything about school and how I wasn't so popular, as well. Why? Because I was the Sped With The Accent. I remember it, all.

Mosaicofminds wrote:

Okay, this is pretty embarrassing I read this in Wikipedia's entry for procedural memory. I realize wikipedia is hardly a reliable source, but I thought a fairly thing simple like this might be credible. It was really unforgivably stupid of me. After all, something as groundbreaking as this would likely even be on the news as dumbed-down as the
news usually is when it comes to anything related to science (or anything in
general for that matter.)

So, quite frankly and much to my eternal shame, I didn't follow up on it. Here's what
is said in the Wikipedia entry in any case:


"New thoughts in the scientific community suggest that the cerebellar cortex holds the holy grail of memory, what is known to researchers as "the engram" or the biological place where memory lives. The initial memory trace is thought to form here and then travel outwards to other brain nuclei for consolidation via parallel fibers known as Purkinje cells".[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_memory


In any case, I could find nothing else about any "new thoughts in the scientific
community which suggest the cerebellar cortex holds the holy grail
of memory".


Now as you said, the cerebullum/cerebellar cortex DOES play a role in
procedural/motor memory. But I could find no "new thoughts in the scientific
community" which would suggest that cerebellar cortex is plays a role in ALL
memory in some fundamental way. I did find one related thing of interest
but it's certainly not conclusive and it doesn't represent some paradigm shift
in neuroscientific thought.

Furthermore...it's only referring to long-term MOTOR memory
storage in the pf*St/Bk synapses. I found the bolded part
interesting only insofar as it suggests the possibility of
similar mechanisms involved in the transfer/storage
of other forms of long-term memory:



"The main experimental prediction of the present model is that in the cerebellar cortex, long-term motor memories are stored at pf*St/Bk synapses. At the behavioral level, this model predicts that even though asymptotic performance levels have been achieved, extensive further training may be necessary to transfer recently acquired motor memories to long-term storage. This result implies that the rate at which a motor memory is forgotten will depend not on the level of asymptotic performance attained but on the degree of overtraining after asymptotic performance levels have been reached. Finally, although the present analysis has been restricted to a single set of synapses in cerebellar cortex, it is not implausible that similar mechanisms could be involved in the transfer of memories to long-term storage at other sites in the central nervous system".

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/25/14200.full





So sorry.....I really should've done a bit more research than this to say the least.







I really can't offer any meaningful comments here since i'm in the same
boat as you in terms of how this might be related to memory. I already
said a few things about it since NVLD is most likely the result of some
sort of dysfunction or absence in white matter. Beyond that, i'm pretty
much at a loss with all this too.



Here's one and you're quite welcome!! !

This is the most comprehensive description of the Category Test I could
find. All the other descriptions I found elsewhere were mostly redundant.
This includes general info about the Halstead-Reitan battery you might
be interested in as well. Scroll down for the description of the Category
test itself:



http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Ha ... ttery.html




There very well could be, but again, anything I could say about this
at present wouldn't even qualify as decent speculation. All I can say is
that depression (maybe even severe, chronic depression in many
cases) is a very common in those with NVLD. There just seems to
very little room for memory problems as severe as mine may be
even among those with serious/chronic depression and NVLD.
I'm just going on what i've gathered from others over the years
who claim to suffer from both. None that I can recall complained
of LT memory problems as extreme as mine seem to be. And
beyond what Rourke has said about all this, I haven't come across
anymore clinical info which would suggest that one or both
issues (including CHRONIC depression) may cause LT memory
problems as serious as mine may be.

Anyway...thanks again for your response and superb insights

Sorry about the idiotic Wikepedia foul-up on my part

*shakes and hangs head*

Wow, it feels weird speculating on someone else's brain...

lol, it's so easy to jump to conclusions about brain research; I'm sure I do it all the time. This was Wikipedia's citation for the bit about the engram: Nagao S, Kitazawa H. (2008) Role of the cerebellum in the acquisition and consolidation of motor memory. Brain Nerve 2008-Jul; 60 (7); 783-90 Taken together with the study you quoted and some studies I looked up briefly last night, it looks like procedural memories could be formed in the cerebellum and probably stored there, and then migrate along the Purkinje cells to new locations elsewhere in the brain. Kind of analogous to how episodic memories are formed in the hippocampus and are eventually consolidated elsewhere in the brain.

It's not in principle impossible that the cerebellum could be involved in long term memory, though. It activates during lots of different kinds of task, and patients with cerebellar damage show all sorts of cognitive and emotional symptoms: http://www.neuro.psychiatryonline.org/c ... t/16/3/367

Thanks, I look forward to reading more about the category test.

Sorry for derailing the thread...

Speculating about my own brain feels pretty weird too. Since it's something
which is the foundation of most, if not all, the emotional pain in my life,
discussing the whole thing in purely clinical terms is quite an odd experience.
Not a bad experience mind you, it actually takes my mind off my overall misery
a bit.

It's pretty clear that the cerebellum and Purkinge cells do play a
role in procedural memory. From the way this wiki excerpt was
worded, I thought it was pertaining to ALL forms of memory, at
least all forms of long-term memory. If multiple systems are
involved in my own memory deficits, then I suppose it's possible
there are some issues with my cerebellum and/or Purkinge cells
when it comes to problems with procedural memory. I just started
to wonder if any of this could have to do with white matter. That
may be possible because the axons of the Purkinge cells extend
into the white matter that underlies the cortex. That's just the
facts of the matter and anything else I could say in this respect
would be pretty blind speculation.

White matter deficits in various areas of the brain can cause the NVLD
symptoms and the deficits themselves have a number of causes. It's just
that the right hemisphere contains a relatively greater amount of white
matter than the left. There is supposedly less evidence to implicate white
matter deficits in developmental cases of NVLD as oppsed to ones which
result from TBI, metachromatic leukodystrophy, etc.... As far as I know, my
case couldn't be anything else but developemental.









I wasn't ruling this out entirely, I just couldn't find anything which would implicate
cerebellar damage in the causation of long-term of memory problems except
for ones with procedural/motor memory specifically.

The link didn't work for me btw. I went to the home page to search for whatever
article this is and I don't know if I found the right one or not. If you can tell me the
title of the article i'm sure i'll find it.


Anyway....you didn't derail the thread as far as i'm concerned. Your replies are
always most welcome indeed!

I remember things in pictures (visual snapshots if you will) sometimes also sound clips. I even used to play this 'game' where someone could show me a still (photo) from any film and I could name the film. No matter how random or unimportant the still. Same with a (random) freeze frame. And not necessarily (usually not) with the star or an iconic scene, either.

But ask me what exact year something happened to me, and I have to stop and think and figure things out by association with this type of memories, I might not be able to.

Example.

I from time to time will think of a movie or show I saw on tv ages ago. I can remember that nearly word for word if not actually word for word. And visually, etc. Just random stuff. I saw a youtube clip last night like that - I was like, "oh so that's where I saw it. I didn't realise it was that long ago." It was from 1982! And I'd remembered it exactly. I don't know why! And from time to time entertainment clips like that or actual memories will surface and they are as if replayed on video.

But when the census taker asked me how old I was, this year, I didn't know. I'm not good with subtracting in my head, and I honestly put up a mental block after a certain age (the number just sounds too old, to me.) Maybe because I don't really care how old I am, either.

So, go figure. Whatever that means, that's how it is for me. Anyone else?

Mosaicofminds~


I just want you to know that the information you have provided
me with is of great value and I can't thank you enough for it. It will
serve me well when/if I can get the kind of MRI I need.

Much to my dismay though, it's not looking like i'm going to be able
to get one any time soon, if ever. It certainly doesn't appear that i'll be
able to have one before I want to start classes in Jan. Someone from the
autism research study will be calling me for the 30 minute phone
interview on Tues. While I may or may not be able to ask this person
about the details of the MRI's involved in this study, i'm sure i'll able
to find out sometime before participating provided i'm accepted in
the first place. Nonetheless, based upon the pamplet they sent me
which describes the MRI studies and what another poster who has
a friend who actually participated in this study told me, it doesn't
appear these MRI's would be of any use to me at all.

The other poster told me they don't even give you the results of your
MRI in the first place. They told me all they said about their friend's
MRI is that it yielded "no gross abnormalities". Still...i'll get as many
details as possible out of them (including what you told in your PM
about the kind of scan i'd need.) as I can and i'll explain my situation
to the extent they will permit me to. I seriously doubt any exceptions
will be made for me, but it never hurts to ask and try anyway.


So beyond this research study, I only have three other options I
can think of and none of them are promising.


-Another research study i'd be eligible for which offers the kind of MRI
i'd need. This is very unlikely since aside from the study at Pitt, I haven't
even found any other studies who will give me the time of day, so to speak.
There are none in my local area and many don't accept non-local
participants. Even if they do, the eligibility criteria is strict and the
chances i'd find one which would accept an "outlier" like myself
are slim to none. A *mere* diagnosis of LD-NOS or Mathematics
Disorder does me no good whatsoever in this respect.


-Getting OVR to cover the costs of an MRI. Especially the type I would
require since I suspect it would be a very expensive one. My case worker
is sending me an authorization letter for another psychological eval. I'm
pretty sure this eval will include most of the same neuropsych/IQ tests
i've had previously. I'm equally sure the results won't tell me anything
beyond what the other five have. I do have alot more information and
insight now than I did when I had my last neuropsych/IQ test and i'd
be able to share much, if not all, of it with the psychologist. If I could
convince the psychologist that I need an MRI, (again....of the type you
mentioned) then they would likely recommend one on the report they
send back to OVR. My case worker DID tell me that OVR may cover the
costs of an MRI if a psychologist recommends one. I have a hard time
believing that though and if they ever do, i'd say that they only do so
in cases of very exceptional clients and I don't believe i'll be one of those
cases. OVR is on a pretty tight budgetary leash and the mental health,
vocational and educational services they offer leave much to be desired
in the first place. I seriously doubt they'd shell out thousands of dollars
for an MRI regardless of a psychologist's recommendations.


-Finding some stranger on one of those "charity" websites, craigslist, etc....
who would be willing to cover the costs of an MRI. As desperate as I am,
I am extremely reluctant to do such a thing for a number of reasons, some
of which we discussed. Even if I did decide to do it and someone was actually
willing to cover the costs of an MRI for me, I doubt i'd be able to find that
*someone* prior to the beginning of classes in January.


So these are the only remaining options I can think of at this time. Insurance is
out of the question. While I should eventually be able to cover the costs of this
out-of-pocket, I doubt i'll have the $1500-$3500 i'd need to do so before Jan.
I'm pretty sure the kind of MRI i'd need would fall within this price range and
I doubt I could get one much cheaper. My family, who could well-afford to cover
the costs of this, refuses to do so. I can't even convince them that I have any serious
long-term memory problems. It's not that they believe i'm deliberately making them
up, they just think i'm unintentionally/unconsciously exaggerating or imagining them.
I can only hope they're right, but these deficits seem as real as ground I walk on to me
and if they really are of solely *pseudoneurological* origin, then I don't know what to
say about that. Maybe I could say that I must have the mother of all Somatoform Disorders
and try to undergo some CIA/KGB-style brainwashing to rid myself of it.

While they admit the possibility that these problems may have an neurological basis,
their attitude is that it wouldn't do me much good to discover the neurological origin/s
of them. I can't really hold this against them, after all, I considering how *normal* I act
and look in so many ways, i'd have a difficult time believing me too. I usually beat them
at Jeopardy, I did well in alot of my classes and my neuropsych results (which they've
seen) don't indicate any significant memory problems at all. Thus....they just assume
this means I couldn't have any long-term memory problems. I've shared the article
from the Oxford Journal of Neurology with them, i've described my memory problems
in detail, but they still don't think it's possible for me to have any abnormal and severe
deficits in long-term memory. The few friends I have are out of the question too.




So this is where everything stands at present and i'd be liar if I said i'm
not extremely depressed and frustrated about it. No need to go into all
that though, complaining will do neither myself nor anyone else any
good. At any rate....I will let you know how the 30-minute phone interview
went sometime after I complete it on Tuesday. If you have any other advice,
info, or alternative options in terms of accessing the type of MRI i'd need,
i'd greatly appreciate it if you'd share them with me. Your kind assistance
and intelligent advice has been of inestimable value to me. Words cannot
express the gratitude I feel towards you. I truly wish there was some way
I could repay you, but I honestly can't imagine how that would be possible.

I hope you are having a splendid weekend and i'll let you know how everything
went on Tues.

I haven't had time to read through all of the OP's post or this thread... But I feel you would be very interested in reading up on H.M. [url]http:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_(patient)[/url]

Basically, he was suffering from severe seizures and they performed a bilateral re-sectioning of his hippocampus.

If you read up on him and about the hippocampus in general, I think you'll start to pull together a lot of your inquiries about long term memory.

The hippocampus is involved in precisely all the types of memories ect that you described. It is also vital for memory consolidation ie- converting short term to long term memory.

There's a plethora of material to read about people who have hippocampal damage or have had similar surgeries out of necessity... and they all have impairments to all these aspects of cognition that you are interested in.

I hope to peruse this thread a bit more when I have time but hope I have at least helped to point you in the right direction for some targeted reading...

Sorry if someone has already mentioned something along these lines.

edit: I kind of read through the wiki article and it is somewhat incorrect to say that his procedural memory was intact... It depended on the type of multi-step task he had to do... There are probably some better reading materials to read about him to get the full situation. I just wanted to google something quick for ya so you could look into it further... There's some amazing biographies on him out there. GL!

@Horus: Sorry the link didn't work. The study is called "Disorders of the Cerebellum: Ataxia, Dysmetria of Thought, & the Cerebellar Cognitive Affective Syndrome." It's by Jeremy D. Schmahmann and it appeared in 2004 in The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences).

Thanks, I really hope the info will help!

Just to clarify--the distinction between whole brain analysis vs. ROI vs. connectivity is purely for studies like the Pitt one that use functional imaging. If you're getting a MRI paid for by OVR, my guess is it'll be a structural MRI, which shows everything. You'll still want to look at the same regions I mentioned. As you probably know, the structural MRI will tell you if there's anything weird about the size or shape of various regions, or if you have a tumor, or your white matter is visibly weird, or something like that. It won't tell you anything about how active different parts of your brain are during memory. Which sort of info is more interesting to you, or would you be happy either way?

BTW, if you do a functional imaging study, there will ALSO be structural MRI images! These are used to figure out where activation actually is in your brain. So it's theoretically possible to get both structural and functional images out of the Pitt study, assuming they give you your results.

That's what I've got at the moment. I'll let you know if I think of anything else before tuesday.

Good luck with the interview. I hope you get to participate.

As far as I know, studies DON'T normally give out MRI results to participants, so what your friend said isn't surprising (although there used to be an ad around my campus saying participants could get $20 and a picture of their brain to take home). So you'll have to persuade them to give you the results. If they don't give you any MRIs, at least you'll be able to ask lots of questions and pick their brains. Maybe they know something about white matter or the Category Test.

Why would you make up these problems and cause yourself so much distress? It makes no sense. Sounds frustrating. Well, actually, since I'm pretty sure most people would doubt my (professionally administered) diagnoses, I do have some inkling.

Aww, thanks. I just think it's really cool that my special interests can actually be useful to someone. Hope you're having a good weekend, and I look forward to hearing how everything goes.

@Sedaka: "I kind of read through the wiki article and it is somewhat incorrect to say that his procedural memory was intact... It depended on the type of multi-step task he had to do"
Hmm, sounds like my classes may have oversimplified. Good to know...Of course, with massive brain damage like HM's, "worse than normal" vs. "totally gutted" is a pretty big deal, and perhaps about as close to intact as you can get.

Sedaka wrote:

Well....in a sense, i'm very familiar with the case of HM.

I've read about it all SEVERAL times, I just don't REMEMBER the precise details you've recounted here.

Perhaps you now have an idea of the severity of the long-term memory problems
i'm dealing with (and have always dealt with.) Keep in mind the HM case is of
great interest to me (for obvious reasons) and I SHOULD have even the most
minute details about it burned into my memory by now.




I have never suffered from seizures or anything else that I know of which may result
in long-term memory impairments. The scores on the memory tests on all the
neuropsych evals i've had were mostly average or better. The only exception was
in visual/non-verbal memory. Visual memory deficits are common enough among
those with NVLD and I fit the general NVLD *profile* on everyone of my neuropsych
evals.

Significant impairment in semantic, procedural and episodic long-term memory
are not common at all among NVLDers. In fact....I seem to be the only NVLDer who
complains of such deficits. The only one who claims these deficits are as profound
as mine appear to be at the very least. Although I have included the following link
in many of my posts, you may not have seen it yet. This is a link to an article from the
Oxford Journal of Neurology and it might even qualify as one of the "Free science papers"
you so desire...lol. Basically this article makes a very good case for the potential and
substantial limitations of the standard neuropsychological memory tests in terms of
their ability to assess LONG TERM memory.


http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472





It's very likely the Hippocampus has much, if not everything,
to do with my memory problems. Still....I have nothing in the
way of empirical data to go on here aside from my own self-
observations. I have countless theories and no conclusions
and no means to confirm anything.


The Fimbria region in the Hippocampus is entirely composed of white matter.


Considering NVLD is most likely caused by some white matter involvement,
this might represent a neurological origin (or at least a partial one) for my
long-term memory deficits. I do have strong doubts about that though.For
one thing....refer to what I said about severe long-term memory complaints
being uncommon, or perhaps even nonexistent, in other NLDers. If the Fimbria
is the *culprit*...I can't imagine there wouldn't be SOME other NLDers out there
with similar complaints and I have yet to encounter any (and believe me....i've
looked.) Furthermore, my procedural memory also seems to be impacted and
unless white matter was somehow also involved in the systems which govern
procedural memory too, I think that's another reason to be skeptical. Finally,
according to Dr. Michael Roman and surely other sources, there is less evidence
to implicate white matter in DEVELOPMENTAL cases of NVLD.

To the best of my knowledge...my own case would qualify as
as "developmental" NVLD. So while i'm certainly not doubting
your idea that the hippocampus may be the origin, in whole
or in part, of my LT memory problems, I have some doubts as
to whether it they could have anything to do with the fimbria in
the hippocampus or NVLD/white matter in general.





You likely didn't know I was also referring to procedural memory.
The hippocampus plays no role in procedural memory to the best
of my knowledge. Please do correct me if i'm wrong here, but
according to the following excerpt from, "The Brain from top
to bottom"...i'm not. I've never heard that the hippocampus
plays any role in procedural memory at all:

"Lastly, procedural memory, such as knowing how to ride a bike, does not appear to involve the hippocampus at all. Instead, procedural memory appears to be associated with modifications in the cerebellum, the basal ganglia, and the motor cortex, all of which are involved in motor control. As evidence to this effect, procedural memory is not affected by amnesia caused by lesions to the hippocampus, but is affected by damage to the cerebellum and by neurodegenerative diseases that alter the basal ganglia, such as Huntington’s disease".

http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_07/ ... r_tra.html






If at all possible and desirable for you, i'm wondering if you could provide
me some links to this material. No worries if you can't/don't want to, it would
just be easier for me considering it's sometimes tough to narrow down specific
cases online which involve something like this.


In any case....thanks for your response and insight here Sedaka. I look forward
to any further responses you wish to offer me

Last edited by Horus on 16 May 2010, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

still don't have too much time to go digging just yet, but to clarify something...

i was probably misconstruing a little on the definition of procedural learning. yes HM could learn to physically do multi-step tasks (even though he never remembered learning such tasks)... But he had issues learning to do other complex tasks which had less to do with manually doing something so much as making executive functioning decisions. but that's probably a whole other can of worms that i'm not too up to speed to be too knowledgeable on. and i still say it's not fair to generally say his procedural learning was not impaired, cause it took him a LONG TIME to learn his complex manual tasks**.

ill try and dig up some hippocampal damage stuff. i study rats and a behavioral phenotype that is very blatant with hippocampal damage in them is a deficit in spatial learning ie-they get lost. generally, a unilateral lesion is not enough to show much of a deficit in this area, but it depends on the placement and size of the lesion.

we still dont have a clear idea of how the hippocampus works... i'll take your word that the fimbria is involved with NLVD. if you're interested in your case, maybe you should get an fmri done. even simply hippocampal volume is crucial for functioning, though if it's an issue of connectivity... then there may not be a means of discerning the issue.

here's a youtube video i found a long time ago. bout a guy born with some sort of hippocampal damage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ6zx_dBeas

**edit: unless they showed those other areas in HM were also damaged... that, i'm not sure of.

Mosaicofminds wrote:

No worries...thanks for the title and i'll check this out ASAP.






Ok....this makes perfect sense. Again I doubt OVR will cover any
mental health care/procedure worth much more than a ham
sandwich, but that's beside the point. I really didn't know an
MRI would be able to determine anything about white matter.
I've heard many NLDers claim that it can't. Including officially
Dx-ed NLD-ers who have undergone an MRI. Are you referring
to something *weird* about the white matter which isn't related
to the NVLD syndrome? As far as which sort of info would be
more interesting to me, that's a good question.

I suppose I would take one choice or the other...both would
be ideal of course, but i'm sure that's too much to ask. I'm
leaning towards a structural MRI while focusing on the areas
associated with memory. I really can't answer this question
definitively until I know more about what can be determined
about one's memory based upon an fMRI observation of activity
levels in areas associated with memory.



That is certainly positive news, but i'm just not sure if they'll be willing
to give me the results of one or both. I would HOPE they would at least
let me know if there are any significant abnormalities on either. I'll try
to find out, but I might not be able to on Tuesday. Naturally, all this is
irrelevant until I know if i'll be accepted into the study or not and I think
the phone interview on Tues will determine that. If I am...i'm going to talk
to them about all this and much more. I will be sure to tell them I believe
I have serious long-term memory problems and maybe they'll take that
into account insofar as anything involving the MRI/FMRI's are concerned.





Why exactly are these studies normally so unwilling to give out MRI
results? What if the results yield some significant neurological issue?
Do they just send people on their way without telling them anything
about it? I would find that impossible to believe. Even in the worst case
scenario, i'll still be willing to participate in this study if they accept me.
Like you said, at least I might be able to pick the brains of some people
who likely know more about neuropsychology than most, if not all, the
psychologists/psychiatrists i've dealt with thus far.




It makes no sense to me either, so your guess is as good as mine
here. I would have to be the world's biggest masochist in order to
unconsciously exaggerate or imagine something like this. Still, I have
NO outside and/or professional confirmation that I have any memory
problems at all aside from visual memory deficits common to many
NVLDers. People have been doubting me all my life, most people seem
to think i'm very intelligent and a few have even claimed I have a GOOD
memory. But the idea that I would "gaslight" myself to this degree is more
than a bit hard to swallow. Nonetheless...the human psyche is a very strange
thing and people believe all kinds of things about themselves and the world
that have absolutely no basis in reality. The Somatoform disorders can
pseudoneurological complaints, but I doubt the answer lies in some sort
of undiagnosed somatoform disorder in my case. Now I would LIKE TO
BELIEVE my memory issues are "all in my head", so to speak. Grossly
exaggerated or imagined memory problems may be alot easier to
contend with then genuinely neurologically-based ones. God knows
maybe even hypnosis would be effective in dispelling some absurd
pseudoneurological memory deficits.

Anyway....thank you again for this priceless info!! ! I will check out that
article sometime tonight or tomorrow.

No comments on the "splendor" of my own weekend, life, etc... but I hope
your own has been grand

Sedaka wrote:

Please don't just do so for my sake, especially if it's any sort
inconvenience for you. I do exhibit spatial learning deficits
and my visual-spatial task performance is abysmal in many
ways. I can't say that any of this manifests itself in any major
problems I have with getting lost. I don't seem to get lost any
more than most people. When you say "this area" are you
referring to unilateral lesion generally have little impact
on spatial memory per se or this area AND other forms of
memory associated with the hippocampus?





Ack....perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. I wasn't trying
to say that the fimbria is involved with NVLD at all. In fact, I doubt
very seriously that it is considering most, if not all, NLDers don't
seem to complain of serious LT memory problems. I was just trying
to say that the fimbria is made up of white matter and since NVLD
is believed to be the result of some degree of white matter involvement
in the brain, I thought that the white matter in my own fibria might
somehow be affected. Even if that's not usually an area of white matter
which is dysfunctional/absent in most NLDers, maybe it is in my case,
idk. This is mostly just pointless speculation on my part, but still, I don't
think it should be ruled out entirely. I'm trying to get a fMRI/MRI done,
I know you haven't read many of my posts (not upset that you haven't
of course...i'm just sayin') because my efforts in this respect are
one of the main things I discuss in them. These efforts have been futile
thus far and there's no reason to mention why right now.

Wouldn't a connectivity analysis on an fMRI be able to discern
something in this respect? Hippocampal volume certainly is an
issue and that's easy enough to determine from an MRI from what
I gather. It might be a major issue for me considering that some
studies have shown that chronic depression as well as elevated
levels of cortisol can reduce hippocampal volume. I have dealt
with plenty of depression and stress in the past forty years. Still,
i'm not sure if chronic depression and stress alone is quite enough
to impact the hippocampus in such a way that would cause the
extreme long-term memory deficits I believe I have. I don't recall
my memory being any better when I was an adolescent either and
prior to that, I really didn't give my memory much thought.

Thanks alot for the youtube link....i'll check it out when i'm done posting
here and get back to you if I have anything meaningful to say about it.

Not everyone's capable of editing such posts. I am sure he is aware it's long because he apologized for it. I usually apologize for long posts too. In my case if I write a post short I an usually incapable of lengthening it and if I write a post long I am usually incapable of shortening it. I am aware of the reading problems my longer posts have caused (in fact, have been the online equivalent of screamed at and belittled for stating that I'm unable to control length), and in fact am unable to read many of my own posts for these reasons. But it's important to be aware that not everyone can "just" make their posts shorter, no matter how much we want to.