Twelve Step programs & spirituality

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mra1200
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07 Jun 2010, 3:43 am

ToughDiamond wrote:

I don't see why all recovery plans would have exactly 12 steps by nature

it's because they've all borrowed the 12 steps of AA, that's why. if you look closely, they're almost identical in each case.

ToughDiamond
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07 Jun 2010, 4:43 am

mra1200 wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

I don't see why all recovery plans would have exactly 12 steps by nature

it's because they've all borrowed the 12 steps of AA, that's why. if you look closely, they're almost identical in each case.

Hmmmm........having seen those, I wonder how I managed to quit smoking tobacco without prostrating myself before any deities or seeing myself as a lowly, helpless worm ripe for reprogramming by somebody better than I am. I went about it the opposite way to those dudes, I kept telling myself that I already had the strength to deal with it, god or no god.

mra1200
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07 Jun 2010, 7:05 am

ToughDiamond wrote:

mra1200 wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

I don't see why all recovery plans would have exactly 12 steps by nature

it's because they've all borrowed the 12 steps of AA, that's why. if you look closely, they're almost identical in each case.

I quit smoking without using any sort of steps. These programs work for some of us, and if it doesn't work for you... well, whatever method you find works for you is great. I have no need to knock what works for anyone else.

psychointegrator
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07 Jun 2010, 7:15 am

LadybugQ wrote:

Is anybody on this site involved with ANY kind of 12 Step recovery programs? If so, how is it working out for you? Not trying to be a smart mouth, I just haven't seen it on these pages yet, and I'd like to connect with other 12 Step Aspies out there!

Considering how flawed the core of 12 step is, you won't find many that it works for overall. One would think a human with AS would not even try such a system or at least low probability compared to NTs.

b9
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07 Jun 2010, 7:44 am

drunk people can not negotiate any more than 12 steps anyway.

ToughDiamond
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07 Jun 2010, 7:57 am

mra1200 wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

mra1200 wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

I don't see why all recovery plans would have exactly 12 steps by nature

it's because they've all borrowed the 12 steps of AA, that's why. if you look closely, they're almost identical in each case.

Well let me put it this way - it looks like a brainwashing stunt and I advise anybody thinking of taking it up to be very careful. Although they say there's no requirement to really believe anything, some of those steps could only be done by somebody with a high level of religiosity, or maybe under some kind of hypnosis. It seems you are expected to embrace an extremely lowly self-image and to submit utterly to some deity. Take care, folks.

LadybugQ
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07 Jun 2010, 9:08 pm

Dear Twelve Step Hard-core Doubters! -

I find it regrettable that you express your ignorance of the overall concept/practice of the Twelve Step recovery process with such sincerity!

Perhaps we should refer to those of us with AS as "obnoxious twits with bad manners?"

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richardbenson
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07 Jun 2010, 10:05 pm

i wanna wish everyone whos trying to quit drinking goodluck. hello sucess story here ive never been in the throws of an addiction like that before, i dont even know why i was so caught up in iit to begin with. what a waste of time, and money! for my babies

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psychointegrator
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08 Jun 2010, 3:00 am

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Quote:

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not give themselves completely to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
A.A. Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, page 58.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves.6 They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.

There's ample sources to back up how ineffective AA is as a whole and then you read the 12 steps themselves, and you see that the process requires a person submit their will to a god, which reveals a few amusing things about the human psyche and it's exploits.

Mescaline, LSD, psilocybin, etc. used as a tool with professional help does work. It's too bad reality and science are at such low levels of importance when it comes to trying to seek help and to help others.

ToughDiamond
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08 Jun 2010, 5:07 am

psychointegrator wrote:

It's not just it's ineffectiveness that worries me:
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10 ... 4600305373
Seems that this "supreme power" you may get persuaded to submit to is sometimes just old devil man doing what he does best.

Quote:

Mescaline, LSD, psilocybin, etc. used as a tool with professional help does work. It's too bad reality and science are at such low levels of importance when it comes to trying to seek help and to help others.

Funny you should mention psilocybin. Towards the end of my relationship with an alcoholic lady, we took some of that together, and that was the first time that she noticed how much damage the alcohol was doing to her. All I'd ever heard from her before on the subject was denial. It was too late to save the relationship, but I like to think it gave her the insight to take a bit more care of herself.

StuartN
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08 Jun 2010, 5:25 am

ToughDiamond wrote:

Seems that this "supreme power" you may get persuaded to submit to is sometimes just old devil man doing what he does best.

It seems to me that the "supreme power" is generally represented by the group facilitator or the most dominant group members. There are people submitting their lives (and I mean decades of their lives) to serve the narcissistic egos of bullies and tyrants. I am talking of my direct observation of the groups that inhabit the local healthcare, and I am sure there are good and bad groups, but the groups here are designed purely to foster dependency, lifelong addiction to group therapy and isolation from the "harmful" experiences of external relationships.

Celoneth
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08 Jun 2010, 6:18 am

They have a pretty low effectiveness rate, but then again most addiction treatments do - though this one has less than average. What worries me is some of the cult/religious aspects. If you aren't successful it isn't because the program isn't for you, it is because you are not correctly implementing the program. If you quit without the 12 steps then you aren't recovered but a "dry drunk." I also have issues with the requirement of a "supreme power" i.e. God. I've seen other people get absolutely obsessed and sucked into the program where it becomes like a substitute for the addiction itself. May work for some but it isn't the only way to deal with addictions nor do I think it is the healthiest way to deal with them.

mra1200
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08 Jun 2010, 8:10 am

my higher power is not me, and that's all i've ever had to worry about it *what* my higher power is. that's been sufficient enough to keep me sober for nearly 20 years.

sure, there are ego's run amok in some 12-step groups, that's bound to happen in at least one group in EVERY city in the country (maybe even the world). No, 12-step programs aren't for everybody, but that's for YOU to determine, not me (or anyone else in one). The 12 steps are simple, but they're definitely not easy.

LadybugQ
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08 Jun 2010, 8:50 pm

Thank you for having my back mra1200!! ! It comforts me that you and Aspinator are out there!

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LenieClarke
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08 Jun 2010, 9:03 pm

# Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our oppressors & so our lives had become unmanageable.

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