Might my correct diagnosis be autism rather than Asperger's?

Page 2 of 3 [ 45 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

19 Jun 2010, 7:55 pm

MrXxx wrote:

ColdBlooded wrote:

But what people here usually refer to as "HFA" is a high-functioning person with "Autistic Disorder."

Correct. It is Autism, but it is not Classic Autism.

If by "classical Autism" you mean the condition know as "Early Infantil Autism" or "Autistic Disorder", DSM code 299.00, ICD-10 code F84.0, then HFA is "classical Autism"; HFA is an unofficial term for Autistic Disorder without Mental Retardation.

Btw, the I read somewhere that the first cases of "autistics" diagnosed (and I am talking about Kanner, not about Asperger) were (by modern standards) HFA .

TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

19 Jun 2010, 8:03 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Link to one explanation of Classic Autism

Link to another explanation

In the first link:

Quote:

Classic autism, a type of autism, is also referred to as severe autism, Kanner's Syndrome, infantile autism, childhood autism, or simply autism disorder. The other types of autism include Asperger syndrome, Rett syndrome, PDD-NOS.

In these link, they don't make any distiction between LFA and HFA - apperently, for them, every ASD whos is not AS, Rerr or PDD/NOS is "classical Autism". If they think like you, they passage will be written :" Classic autism, a type of autism, is also referred to as severe autism, Kanner's Syndrome, infantile autism, childhood autism, or simply autism disorder. The other types of autism include Asperger syndrome, High-functioning Autism, Rett syndrome, PDD-NOS."

In the seconf link, I don't see nothing saying that HFA is not classical autism, nor nothing saying that is.

LostInSpace
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,617
Location: Dixie

19 Jun 2010, 8:10 pm

TPE2 wrote:

Agreed. HFA= 299.0 without an Axis II diagnosis of mental retardation, therefore HFA= classic autism, which people also refer to as Kanner's autism (in contrast to Asperger's autism). Your view of classic autism would likely be called "severe autism" or "low functioning autism" by most people. Classic autism includes both LFA and HFA.

_________________
Not all those who wander are lost... but I generally am.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 8:23 pm

"The key issues that differentiate one end of the spectrum from the other are language and intelligence. Children diagnosed with what is often called "classic" autism fall at the "low functioning" end with severe deficits in verbal and nonverbal communication." - ehow article

The term "Classic" does not appear in the DSM (either IV or V), so the term is somewhat subjective. However "classic" generally means "of the first," or in this case, the oldest understanding of what Autism is. Before Aspger's research Autism was never considered to be "high functioning." Thankfully, Aspeger's work had a lot to do with expanding that understanding.

"Classic Autism," wherever I have read about it (not in forums), even in relatively recent works has always referred to low functioning Autism in the classic sense of the understanding of what Autism is, before Asperger's research was performed.

This is irrespective of later understandings and usage of terms like PDD, PDD-NOS, and Asperger's Syndrome (which Asperger did not coin). Asperger was still using the terms "Autistic Psychopathy," and "Autistic Schizophrenia," (which he did not agree with).

_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...

TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

19 Jun 2010, 8:33 pm

MrXxx wrote:

First, Asperger's and Kanner's research were made more or less at the same time.

And, even about Kanner, I think that most of their patients are "high-functioning" (at least, according to something that I read in these forum).

Note that, as is traditionally used, "high functioning" does not mean that you are more functional in the practical issues of everyday life: if an autistic is an expert in astrofisics, it is possible that he will be considered HFA, even if he is incapable of feeding and dressing himself and of communicating with other person besides his carers.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 8:35 pm

I don't think any of us are actually in disagreement of the principles here. Perhaps only over the specificity of the word "classic."

To me, Classic Autism means the first understanding of Autism. The DSM didn't even exist then, so its specifications don't even apply to the way I use the term. If you choose to use the DSM as the litmus test of what classic is, then of course, that's what classic is, and then we are talking about two different things using the same term, which is really confusing to both of us.

So how about I leave out the term classic and put it this way instead:

HFA and the oldest descriptions and understanding of Autism are not the same.

Maybe now it makes more sense.

Apple_in_my_Eye
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,420
Location: in my brain

19 Jun 2010, 8:42 pm

MrXxx wrote:

The term "Classic" does not appear in the DSM (either IV or V), so the term is somewhat subjective. However "classic" generally means "of the first," or in this case, the oldest understanding of what Autism is. Before Aspger's research Autism was never considered to be "high functioning." Thankfully, Aspeger's work had a lot to do with expanding that understnerstanding.

"Classic Autism," wherever I have read about it (not in forums), even in relatively recent works has always referred to low functioning Autism in the classic sense of the understanding of what Autism is, before Asperger's research was performed.

Interestingly, as far as Kanner's original patients, apparently if they were looked at today they'd likely be diagnosed with Asperger's. It seems the that current idea of "low functioning autism" evolved after then.

http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=299

Quote:

As you can see, none of Kanner’s subjects fit the stereotype the “expert” was describing. So why is it that people invoke the name of Leo Kanner to describe people who fit a certain stereotype (an “LFA” stereotype)? It’s interesting. Last fall, I speed-read a number of books on autism, from different time periods, that describe it in different ways. (When I read in that manner, I don’t understand what I read until later.) In one of the books (I wish I could remember which), they are very explicit about their usage of the term Kanner autism. They used it very similarly to the way people today would say “high functioning”. They then described an newer category of “autistic PDD” that was making its way into the concept of diagnosing autism, and that included more “lower functioning” or “severely affected” people than Kanner had talked about.

So invoking the name of Kanner used to mean high-functioning, and now is used to mean low-functioning. (High-functioning and low-functioning by the way are stereotypes, and not things I believe in as realities, because human beings’ abilities are more complex with that.) I wish more people who throw that word around would learn what it means and what it doesn’t mean and who particularly Kanner studied, and who they were and were not. Because all this stuff about “not talking at all, not interacting at all, sitting in a corner rocking and head-banging, unaware of anything, etc” is not what his study of these children actually describes — even with his own biases and such all in there. It’d be nice if people actually read this stuff. By the standards of that particular “expert” on that show, most of Kanner’s patients would probably now be diagnosed with PDD-NOS or possibly even Asperger’s, because none of them fit the stereotype she described.

There's a lot more detail in the whole article.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 8:44 pm

TPE2 wrote:

First, Asperger's and Kanner's research were made more or less at the same time.

True, but the term "Autism" was already in use. Don't know who coined it, or who first researched it, but there was already some understanding of what Autism was. A lot of it was mistaken. The fact that it was all low functioning was one of those mistaken ideas. Heck they thought it was related to Schizophrenia.

All I'm saying is that it is that understanding of Autism that I refer to when I say "classic." If that isn't what the rest of you mean, then the argument is moot. We're talking about two different things.

TPE2 wrote:

And, even about Kanner, I think that most of their patients are "high-functioning" (at least, according to something that I read in these forum).

Aspger's for certain. Not sure about Kanner. I thought so, but now I'm seeing his Autism description equated to low functioning "severe" Autism. I'll be reading about his research over the next few days. It's the next chapter in the book I'm reading.

TPE2 wrote:

Note that, as is traditionally used, "high functioning" does not mean that you are more functional in the practical issues of everyday life: if an autistic is an expert in astrofisics, it is possible that he will be considered HFA, even if he is incapable of feeding and dressing himself and of communicating with other person besides his carers.

Yes, that much I've always understood. :wink:

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 8:50 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:

Yes, and I think this is what's causing the confusion in this discussion. I'm using classic to describe the idea before it evolved, while others are using it to describe the idea after it evolved. No wonder we aren't agreeing! I'm talking Apples while everyone else is talking Oranges, but we've been thinking we're talking about the same thing.

Quote:

This is exactly why I'm reading the oldest books first, then working my way up. I want to see for myself the evolution of ideas.

TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

19 Jun 2010, 8:58 pm

My ideia (note that I never read a book specifically about autism, then you are "above" of me in this issue) is that, before Kanner and Asperger, "autism" was used, not for what we today call "autism", but to designate the tendency of schizophrenics to live in a kind of imaginary world instead of in "real world".

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 9:07 pm

TPE2 wrote:

I'm seeing that too, in my reading. I'm also seeing that they both seemed to cause a shift in the way everyone thought about Autism at the time. Aspeger, I think, eventually caused the two to be understood differently. They are different.

TPE2
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,461

19 Jun 2010, 9:25 pm

My impression is that, more than change "the way everyone thought about Autism", they changed the meaning of the word.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 9:32 pm

TPE2 wrote:

My impression is that, more than change "the way everyone thought about Autism", they changed the meaning of the word.

If you spend some time perusing an etymological dictionary sometime, you'll find that changing the way people think about things is what changes the meanings of words. Word meanings don't change unless the people using them change the way they use them, which for all practicality means they are changing the way they think about them.

So, yeah, they did both.

It's yet another "chicken or egg? Which came first problem." In the end, all that really matters is that we have chickens, and they lay eggs. :lol:

katzefrau
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,835
Location: emerald city

19 Jun 2010, 9:41 pm

MrXxx wrote:

I'm not a doctor, but it really seems odd that anyone with Autistic symptoms as severe as the ones you describe would posses that level of written articulation.

The apparent contradiction confuses me. :scratch:

it is hard to wrap one's head around. but anbuend for one will quickly and brilliantly dispel any misconceptions anyone has regarding written language ability (or any other trait) and its indication (or lack thereof) of functionality level (which in some cases seems to be an arbitrary distinction anyway)

still confused? thought so.

_________________
Now a penguin may look very strange in a living room, but a living room looks very strange to a penguin.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

19 Jun 2010, 9:47 pm

katzefrau wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Actually I'm not anymore. If you read the rest of the thread, you may have seen that. Or not. :wink:

LostInSpace
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,617
Location: Dixie

20 Jun 2010, 10:40 am

MrXxx wrote:

TPE2 wrote:

My impression is that, more than change "the way everyone thought about Autism", they changed the meaning of the word.

It's yet another "chicken or egg? Which came first problem." In the end, all that really matters is that we have chickens, and they lay eggs. :lol:

Yes, they changed what people understood about the word "autism", by inventing the concept of "autism" as a developmental disability. It's little more than just changing the meaning of a word- they described an entirely new concept that had not existed previously. Wait, why are we arguing about etymology?

The point is that although the word "autism" was around before Kanner and Asperger, they were the first two to describe the concept of autism that we have today. Therefore I think it is incorrect to argue that the concept of autism (meaning a developmental disability) was around before Kanner and Asperger merely because the word existed. The *concept* of "classic autism" originated with them.

_________________
Not all those who wander are lost... but I generally am.

Last edited by LostInSpace on 20 Jun 2010, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Page 2 of 3 [ 45 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Jump to:

Might my correct diagnosis be autism rather than Asperger's? Post Reply New Topic

Might my correct diagnosis be autism rather than Asperger's?