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melbi
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16 Jul 2010, 10:26 pm

Willard wrote:
How about this:


Families with higher income levels are more likely to be able to afford the diagnostic process than poor folk.




+1


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pschristmas
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16 Jul 2010, 11:47 pm

I question the method used to determine the study sample. Although on the surface it would seem to solve the problem of ascertainment bias, there are so many holes in this selection process that I would have to question whether the people running the study could be certain that any of the children represented in their sample actually had an ASD. There are at least two sources of reporting bias that jumped out at me just from their description of the study sample sources.

First, the observed behaviors would have to have been reported through an educational facility. How are the behaviors reported? Surely not every interaction between children in the states listed and their teachers, mentors or school administrators are recorded, therefore someone -- a person -- has to make the decision as to which behaviors should be reported and which should not. Are they more likely to report behavior they see as being unusual or behavior that is deemed perfectly normal, if not ideal? How many interactions were ignored in this process by educators or others who simply decided that certain behavioral issues were normal for kids from a particular socio-economic or cultural background? How many were missed because their autistic behaviors weren't disruptive?

Second, how many individuals with low or even moderate incomes are going to discuss their children's behavioral issues with their medical provider? If one of the sources is information provided by medical practitioners, then there is an automatic bias toward families that actually have good medical insurance, since lower income families aren't going to spend precious medical time on what they likely see as a discipline problem, not a medical problem, especially if the insurance they do have doesn't provide adequately for behavioral counseling. Parents are much more likely to either attempt to address the issues on their own long before seeking outside help or to simply shrug off less severe manifestations as "that's just how s/he is."

Finally, the clinicians were diagnosing children they had never met based upon third or even fourth party descriptions of a child's overall behavior. Do I need to explain why this is questionable? (I won't go into whether or not it is ethical to then presumably not notify the child's parents of a possibility that their child may have a condition that will affect the rest of their lives.) The fact that they later confirmed that about 66% of those had actually received a diagnosis of ASD is immaterial. Within that sample, they could have done as well -- or possibly better -- by rolling dice.

Frankly, the study is flawed because their sample selection is flawed and very likely just as biased as SES studies based upon formally diagnosed patients.

Their choices of statistical tests seem a bit odd to me, too, but it could just be the fact that it's almost midnight as I'm writing this. If their data are normal, as they would need to be for the reported t-tests, why use a Poisson? I thought that was used for non-normal data distributions? (I could be completely wrong, here. I suffered mightily through stats.)



pat2rome
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17 Jul 2010, 12:32 am

It's more likely that people with more money can spare the expense necessary to obtain a legal diagnosis. I think the study is very flawed for that reason.


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anbuend
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17 Jul 2010, 1:13 am

Wow, tell that to all my poor and working-class relatives who are autistic (huge family history, both sides). Of course none of us were diagnosed as autistic until parts of the family made it into the middle class.


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Followthereaper90
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17 Jul 2010, 2:24 am

im rich then :D :D :D


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zen_mistress
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17 Jul 2010, 3:35 am

MissConstrue wrote:
zen_mistress wrote:
there is a lot of ASD in one side of my family. thing is though they are not scientists, they tend to be artists or into history/sociology.



My family is the same way. But it's weird, we've had both extremes of AS and bipolar. It also seems so many of us have had trouble with learning disabilities involving facts and figures, all except for my dad who is border line.


Im glad Im not the only one :) .

I dont know fully about this Maths and Science thing with ASD.. yes there are a lot of techy people with AS, but most of the people in my class at university- biology etc- were NTs. There were a few people who looked AS but there are far more NTs there statistically.

Also there are a lot of people on the board here who are not good at maths at all but are into art, music, writing or history/politics.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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17 Jul 2010, 3:43 am

one-A-N wrote:
Simon Baron-Cohen found that autistic character traits (as measured by his AQ Test) were higher on average for staff and students in faculties such as engineering, computer science, natural science, and especially mathematics, than for students and staff in other faculties. The "non-technical" faculties had AQ Test scores similar to the general non-university population of eastern England. The highest-scoring academic group in his university population sample were people involved in the Mathematics Olympiad at Cambridge University.

Mild autistic personality characteristics can have adaptive value in modern, highly specialised, highly technical societies. So I would not be at all surprised if AS is more common among the children of mathematicians, engineers, natural scientists, and computer scientists - and these tend to be well-paid, and even highly paid, jobs. Put two people together who both have mild autistic characteristics, and the chances of them having a child with a diagnosable ASD is higher than two people with no autistic characteristics. That is quite consistent with what is known about the genetics of ASD, as far as I know. It is also consistent with observations of (say) Silicon Valley.

It is true, of course, that middle class families are more likely to afford and pursue diagnosis, but even after accounting for that, I believe there is a greater likelihood of ASDs occurring in certain types of professional families for perfectly understandable genetic reasons: mild autistic characteristics are an advantage in certain fields, and these traits are inheritable and increase the likelihood of producing children with ASDs.



But what does this indicate exactly? It indicates that the ASD is very related to the personality type of the parents, the personality type is mostly genetic and ,like any genetic trait, can be passed on to the offspring. So that means that AS is.....
<not going off-topic again>



IdahoRose
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17 Jul 2010, 3:52 am

I think that study is flawed because wealthier families are more able to afford an official diagnosis.



Leekduck
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17 Jul 2010, 4:51 am

Makes sense, the part of my family with Autism is descendant from Norfolk Landowners



hartzofspace
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17 Jul 2010, 11:52 am

This study doesn't include older Aspies who have diagnosed late, have been highly educated, and yet are going from job to job due to the intolerance of certain NTs. My boyfriend has a PhD, and I am also college educated, yet we both cannot earn incomes proportionate to our knowledge base. And, as we age, the outcome only looks worse. In sum, we are both capable of earning high incomes. We are just more likely to run into problems keeping jobs.


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pat2rome
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17 Jul 2010, 3:53 pm

Leekduck wrote:
Makes sense, the part of my family with Autism is descendant from Norfolk Landowners

That could just be sampling bias, though. Remember, you can't really infer a correlation just from one case!

AWESOME name/avatar, by the way. I made a Pokémon discussion thread in the video games forum if you're interested.


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ProfessorX
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17 Jul 2010, 5:09 pm

I have to diplomatically disagree in terms of ASD being soley in the realm of those of high finance on the following grounds..1. ASD's are not confined nor limited to any particular group of people regardless or race,nationality,gender etc.
2.If all ASD' were merely confined to the rich then, that would make my great-grandfather,grandmother, and aunt all to be phony as being part of the spectrum due to the notion they came from humble backgrounds..
3.I myself grew up in humble background for, I was not of a wealthy family so, I feel that many ASD's can sometimes be overooked..


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TPE2
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17 Jul 2010, 5:15 pm

Another point:

Perhaps a mild autistic kid (specially of the "passive" variant) could be considered "problematic" in a Beverly Hills (or a Silicon Valley) school but a model student in a South Central LA school ("Yes, he is a bit different from the others, but at least he is not joining a gang")



one-A-N
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18 Jul 2010, 1:53 am

ProfessorX wrote:
I have to diplomatically disagree in terms of ASD being soley in the realm of those of high finance on the following grounds


But who is saying solely? The study only needs to show a statistically significant higher rate of ASD among high income families, doesn't it? Nothing about it being solely found in higher income families.



ProfessorX
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18 Jul 2010, 6:48 am

But who is saying solely? The study only needs to show a statistically significant higher rate of ASD among high income families, doesn't it? Nothing about it being solely found in higher income families.[/quote]


I apologize as, I over-reacted in what I had said..



Leekduck
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18 Jul 2010, 6:51 am

pat2rome wrote:
Leekduck wrote:
Makes sense, the part of my family with Autism is descendant from Norfolk Landowners

That could just be sampling bias, though. Remember, you can't really infer a correlation just from one case!

AWESOME name/avatar, by the way. I made a Pokémon discussion thread in the video games forum if you're interested.


thanks ill check it out