NT's should explain themselves. (A challenge to NT's)

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Whoa! The "exceptions" would be Aspies. Are we not worth bothering with?

This thread is very interesting. I genuinely appreciate the NTs who took the time to respond, and I am very interested in the responses, but I have to say I am surprised by the offhandedness of some of the replies. In some instances it seems the answer is considered too obvious to be worth actually giving an answer?

I also find it interesting that the NTs who responded assume that we are on WP because we want to be social or fit in. I am here because I am trying to figure out what in the heck I can do to deal with my life, and I am looking for answers. I do enjoy reading posts and knowing I can reply if I want to, but I don't reply that often. I don't see how that's being social. On another forum I was on I would get constant PMs from people wanting to be friend, though I myself never sent any, because it didn't even occur to me. I don't socialize with anyone here (not that I'm against it or anything).

I did not mean to imply that socializing is inherently fun for everybody. But for the people who like socializing, it actually is fun. That really is the best word. After a lifetime of hearing people use the word "fun" to describe activities that you loathe, I can see how you would be suspicious of the word. Nonetheless, it does actually fit for me. I will try to expand: When I socialize, I can put aside all my worries and just be in the moment and have good feelings and enjoy myself. I am not implying that socializing feels this way for everybody (or for anybody on this board except the other 3 or 4 NTs, and maybe not them either). But it is why I do it.


Yes, groups do serve that function for many people. You may not believe me. I can't help that. I understand that this is not your experience. It can't possibly be Chrono's experience either or she wouldn't have started the thread. But even though it is not an experience common to anyone on the autism spectrum doesn't mean that it therefore doesn't exist and I'm mistaken about my own experiences. When Labpet (or anybody) says ,"this is what stimming accomplishes for me" I don't say- "no, it doesn't. It's useless and accomplishes nothing" which is what so many books say. I believe her because she's speaking from personal experience. So I am speaking from personal experience when I say that being part of a group does counter loneliness for me.


That's making assumptions about a groups based on your experience. A group may look like an exclusionary clique to you. Many groups are exclusionary cliques, which just muddies the matter. But that isn't the definition of the group nor is it the only kind of group- nor even the most common kind of group- that there is. A group is just a bunch of people who do stuff together. There is nothing sinister about it.

When I was in highschool I hung out with a group that listened to a certain type of music. It was exclusionary only in the sense that if you disliked that music, you wouldn't want to be in the group because you wouldn't enjoy the concerts we went to together nor would you like listening to the albums we put on when we visited each others' houses. Anyone could join, but there definately was the group provision that our group activity would always be going to concert A and never going to concert B. Group identity built around musical choices can turn very ugly. (Cockney Rebel is likely well versed in the bloody fights between Mods and Rockers) but it isn't inherent or sinister.

Now as an adult I no longer belong to groups built around music. Instead the groups I belong to are built around the shared experiences of living in a particular neighborhood, having kids and working for a particular company. These groups are exclusionary in the sense that they require living in the neighborhood for group A, having kids for group B and working for that company for group C. While exclusionary in that sense I don't think it's particularly sinister. It's just a bunch of people in all cases bonding over a shared experience and using that experience as a jumping off point for doing more things together or just hanging out. It's exclusionary in the sense that you need to share the experience. But if you do, you can join the group. Pretty much every shared experience has the potential to have a group build up around that.

Yes.
edited: It's worth to elaborate here. You see, most people who break social rules are simply being jerks, .Now we also have some people who just don't know better, autists among them. I personally can't be bothered with determining who's who, I'd rather dismiss them all. It's more convenient that way.


I don't see how that's not being social.
I also don't like to talk much and prefer to listen to people.

But you are here. Why are you here, if determining who's autistic versus who's being a jerk, and being understanding and kind to the autistic isn't worth the bother?

As one who does have trouble with unwritten social rules that I don't understand, I appreciate it when people recognize that I'm not being a jerk.

I'm thinking, a question that could go along with that question is, why read fiction?

For me, from my particular spot on the spectrum, reading fiction has been a great help. That as well as song lyrics has helped me so much in understanding interpersonal relationships. Stuff that helps me a lot in getting along with others. Makes up for stuff I didn't pick up from watching others. Helps me get along socially and have friendships.

I'm here because I have an interest in neurological disorders (studying physiology of CNS is one of my hobbies).


I understand that.

What is the point of this? Is this Scare The NTs Away Week? The NTs who come here, are decent people who have an interest in those of us, who are on the spectrum. Our job is to teach and accept them.

Hi Chronos, thanks for starting this thread. Why have I not explained myself? Nobody has bothered to ask me until now. I'm happy to answer your questions and any others that come up, but please pardon my short answers and I'd be happy to clarify if there are any follow up questions.

I have several special interests in the spectrum sense of the word, in that I know massive quantities of information about my special interests to the point where it gets somewhat obsessive. I cannot speak for other NTs.



Cannot answer this, it is completely dependent on the situation. Though I would love an opportunity to explain this in "real time" at some point.



Survival.



I don't. For me, formation of friendships, and close friends, takes a lot of time. Cannot speak for other NTs.



Best answer is, those are habits I learned at a very young age from my parents and teachers and my hand motions are 95% involuntary. Bigger picture, they help me emphasize points I am trying to make. Also, I notice I use more hand motions when I feel like the other person is not listening or not understanding what I am trying to say.



Not sure this is a need, but rather a choice. If the book I am reading is well written and has realistic characters, I can allow myself to become "absorbed" in the story and, yes, relate to fictional characters. I'll bet this is siimilar to becoming absorbed in a video game.



I believe this characteristic is built into human DNA. I believe that this is an evolutionary adaptation that allowed homo sapiens to out-compete other species. Its not a choice.



What you are asking about is peer pressure, and it is a huge motivator for children and adolescents, but not so much for adults. Peer pressure causes many young people to do and say things they wouldn't ordinarily do. For myself, I learned, or decided or was taught at a young age to live a deliberate life and not succumb to peer pressure, and there are very few things I did in high school that I regret.



Nobody's asked me to write them down, and writing is not my profession, so there is no need for me to write these things down. I've been happy to write some of these things down as contributions to WP and if anybody wants more, just ask and I will continue contributing. I don't assume very much about other people, and I especially don't assume that other people understand unspoken social rules. I do assume that everyone I meet is doing their best under the circumstances, no matter how things may appear.



I don't know anything about other people, other than people I've gotten to know, so when I meet a stranger I try not to assume anything other than what I mentioned in response to #9. I act friendly to almost everyone partly becuase of the golden rule, partly as a matter of survival, partly because I believe everyone can use another friend and deserves to have one, and partly because I believe the world would be a happier place if everyone acted friendly so I try to set a good example.

Thanks you again for asking, I really appreciate the opportunity to share.



Thanks CR, I wish more people felt this way.

Thanks for writing this.

I learn about autism here and I learn about lots of other things besides. You got me to dig out my old Kinks tapes that I hadn't listened to for years and rediscover them.

Hooo boy..................

I wanted to respond, but I will have to come back with my answersto these questions. Some of these questions I haven't thought about very deeply. Some of them... a few of them actually strike me as unanswerable. Like social cues for every social situation. I have no clue.

But, I appreciate it as an exercise. I can't answer for all NT's, I can only attempt to answer from my own experience. I will not represent for NT's, especially professionals in the autism field. And I don't like being pitched into a camp that 1. would send a perfectly healthy child (assuming) to a slew of psychiatrists and psychologists to be assaulted by PhD level questions like these 2. be the professional examiner.

Were you really asked these kinds of intense, intricate questions at 8 years old? That seems utterly ludricrous, pointless and cruel. It seems you might need therapy to deal with the invasive, unprofessional and ridiculous therapy you were subjected to as a child. I do believe in therapy as a valuable tool, but there are a lot of BAD therapists out there. A child should not feel that there are in a therapy session, the therapy should not be so overt and pointed like you experienced. I really feel for you.

I can relate to the tone of what you are getting at with this post and the concept of inverted relationshiop between AS and NT. I've thought about this. I feel this way about certain aspects of my son's services at school. Your thread has given me the courage to bring this up with his special ed. teacher this coming year.

They are teaching him to be so polite. The language is very polite. Extra polite to the point of being beyond how most kids actually talk to one another. Why do they do this? There's so much language about being gentle and kind, etc... My kid is the most gentle, kind kid around. It pains me to see him being extra polite with the kids in his class while they respond in a course way and no one says anything or seems to notice. Or, he's just ignored. It must be totally confusing to him, not to get the response that gets rehearsed in his social skills class for example.

Everything seems to assume that my son will be aggressive, have meltdowns, or be extremely rude just because he has autism.

This pisses me off. I'm afraid that I won't get the kind of response I want when I bring this up, because this seems to be built into every social curriculum.

Part of my point is that social norms are so nuanced, so dependent on the conditions of the moment that they are virtually impossible to pin down and teach to every conceivable possible situation.

Tenzin is constantly asking me, "What will happen, if I say....." or "What's going to happen if I do..." He wants to know what the response will be from another person in various scenarios and most of the time I am at a complete loss. He gets upset and demanding when I say "I don't know". But my mind doesn't work that way. A+C= Z.

In fact, if someone were to say, "Oh, well he will say... such and such, " I think they are lying. It cannot be known with certainty.

I need some time to think about all the other points and questions.

My daughter does that too. It aggravates her so much that I can't give her an accurate template for everything that will ever happen in every social interaction. I give most likely scenarios. I give possibilites. But I can't give guarentees of what people will say or do.

Many of my posts in the stickied NT/AS HOTLINE thread are adultified adaptions of things I told her when she asked me why people do this or that. But there is a limit to what parents can do because other people are predictable only up to a certain extent. Past that, there is no telling what somebody will do or say in response to something. I can make broad predictions of anger when she says, "what will X do if I don't let her use my toy?" But I can't specify what form this anger will take: will she grab the toy anyway? cry? complain to a teacher? complain to another student? hit my daughter? say nothing but then refuse any further interaction in the future? say "I hate you?" There are so many possibilities. I can no more spell out every single possible non-verbal signal in every social interaction than I can predict with absolute accuracy for my daughter what all classmates will do in reaction to all scenarios.

On the plus side, explaining to her and explaining here has made me more self aware. So much of this stuff does go on below the level of awareness and it takes some effort to drag it forwards into awareness so it can be explained. Chronos is right. It's unfair that autistic people should constantly have to be in such a state of self awareness as to explain this to people on a regular basis. On the other hand, this unfairness arises from the fact that other NT people simply don't ask because they don't need to. If an in-depth explanation is requested, there are sociologists to figure it all out and write explanatory books. Nobody expects an NT 8 year old to explain things best left to sociologists to figure out. So yes. It is unfair. But it would also be beyond weird if I went up to my NT coworkers and neighbors and handed them a written pamphlet of social rules I follow or explained to them why I say "hello" to them every morning.

I'm NT so I'll try to play this game too.

1. Why do you not have special interests?
Oh, I do! Currently I am interested in AS (that's why I am on this board) because my daughter was dx with AS a year ago. I am interested in all things Disney-so much so that people think I am nuts. I go to WDW four times a year. NT's have obsessive interests too.

2. What are these non-verbal cues you are perceiving? Explain them in detail for each social situation.
Body language such as tensing up can lead you to believe the other person is uncomfortable.
Hands crossed in front of them can mean "go away" or "I'm uncomfortable"
Looking away from you usually means disinterest in what you are saying
Smiling means they're happy and interested
These are just a few, it would be impossible to list them all. It is just a general "feeling" you get when you are around someone that gives you a psychological message to change or continue what you are currently doing.

3. Why do you spend so much time socializing?
I don't. I'm awful at social situations and find chit chat unbearable!

4. How do you know when people want to be your close friend if they do not explicitly say so?
They'll call you up or text you or make an effort to be around you or talk about shared interests.

5. Why do you move your hands when you speak? Do you not feel your words and tone are sufficient?
It's automatic. You don't think about it. When you feel strongly about what you are expressing, then your whole body gets involved emphatically.

6. Why do you feel the need to empathize with fictional characters? Are not only the facts of the story and concepts it attempts to convey important? The characters are not real people and do not require your empathy.
When you get caught up in a story (fictional or real) you tend to "put yourself in their shoes" and "feel" what it would be like for that to happen to you or someone you loved.

7. Why do you feel the need to "fit in" to a group?
Because for some reason having other people like you makes you feel more acceptable and successful in life. Also, if it is a group that shares your interests then it can be "fun" to share ideas/thoughts/etc about that common interest

8. Why do you all become so insecure in highschool such that you will do things you do not really want to do and say you like things that you do not really like?
Because high schoolers are mean and cruel and you will do anything to get them to stop being so mean

9. Why do you not write down your unspoken social rules for others? What makes you assume that others know them?
Because we rarely think about them. I don't even know that I understand them fully and the most popular people in life that probably DO understand them don't have the time in their busy social life to sit down and tell everyone else.


10. How do you know if someone really wishes to socialize with you or be your friend since many of you will act as a friend when friendship is not desired?
There is a difference between friend and acquaintance. Even friends can be not so friendly at times. You basically have to evaluate a "friendship" based on that moment and how your relationship is right then. Sometimes you "act as a friend" when you work with someone and have to be around them all the time so that your work is more pleasant. Many unpleasant people will use you for whatever reason so you have to constantly evaluate whether someone is a true friend or just using you. I am not a good person to answer this because I don't tend to make friends very easily.

Chronos

Hermits and loners prefer to be alone. People who have difficulty want the attention but can't get it. You know that right?

5: It's instinctive expression to put further meaning into the tone and words. Alot like facial expressions. It's human, not "just NT".

6: You don't enjoy games and fiction characters? That's kind of missing out on some of life's emotional treats, in my oppinion.

Last edited by LiendaBalla on 20 Jul 2010, 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nonverbal cues aren't limited to NTs. Autistic people have them too. We just have different ones. For many of us, when we meet an autistic person who is very much like us, or very much like another autistic person we know really well, we are able to read their nonverbal cues because we can understand what we would be thinking or feeling if we were doing the same thing. It's automatic. There is no way to quantify all of them. And not everyone even has the same ones.

Yes I was bombarded with similar stuff when i was 9 or so. i had to learn social laws via adults shouting abusively at me.

Nice post, Mr. Ant, respectful!