How can you identify or avoid adult bullies?
Thats not to say all sweetness and light people are sociopathic bully's. Some are genuine sweeties.
As subgroups go, women and/or men will most likely be kinder to the opposite sex.
In-crowd pack leaders, their lackies and new initiates into group packs are most likely to bully, usually after the first cues are given, whether verbal or non verbal, by the ringmaster head bully (aspies nemesis).
Last edited by Surfman on 20 Oct 2010, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One of the problems I have, is that I frequently can't tell when I'm being bullied. Adult bullies are much more savvy than kids. Nobody steals my lunch money, but a few time I've figured out that I was being bullied in the workplace.
For example. I had a boss who was just an all around crappy guy. He was a former cop who lost his job due to a minor accident and, I later learned, several disciplinary problems. Most of his employees were fresh-out of college, young, female IT geeks. I was the only male assigned to his team and only because they needed a modeling expert with multi-platform coding experience for a 3-year Credit Risk Management project. I was in my early 30's, not as naive as I was at 20, but not much more mature than a 20 year NT.
This guy liked to pick one employee at a time and make them into a special project. His goal was to "Help them find rock bottom", so they could better their life and build a stronger career. He genuinely though he was helping people by doing this. He did this by having sit-downs with the employee where he'd criticize every thing they do. No yelling, no screaming, just once or twice a week, a couple hours of critically ripping apart every piece of work you put out. I didn't realize what was up, why turnover was so high on the team, most people would last about 18 months. Then he decided it was my turn to be taken to "rock bottom".
Well crap. I had no idea why my work, which had been fine before, was suddenly so terrible. This went on for a few months, a couple times a week, he'd look at my schedule and stop over to grab me from my desk and walk me down to a conference room for a nice, pleasant deconstruction of my efforts. Nothing would be acceptable. Of course, being aspie, this means I began to over-work everything as I tried to keep my job, and my quality decline even further as I over-thought problems. Finally, he told me about his "rock bottom" plan during a meeting and it all clicked for me. All at once I figured out he was screwed up in the head and got kicks from this, it had nothing to do with the employees work. So I dropped my resume out there, left my job of seven years and was working at a new company within three weeks. I probably should have gone through HR and gotten him fired, but this kind of thing just doesn't occur to me.
How can you identify or avoid adult bullies?
Going to HR doesn't always work, at least for your intended result. There are some HR w*kers out there that side with the employer, for various reasons I can't remember at the top of my head.
I know where you're coming from....it's hard to see what's hitting you at the time because the social intelligence thing doesn't work quickly and intuitively for Aspies. So the only way of detecting it better is to study bullying - there are a lot of Websites campaigning against it, and they tend to have lots of examples. Workplace bullying has a legal definition in the UK which includes such things as frequent nit-picking.....if he were in the UK, your boss would be leaving himself wide open to litigation by openly admitting that he deliberately nit-picks in order to take workers down to "rock bottom."
Luckily you don't need to detect adult workplace bullying instantly, for most practical purposes. It's usually enough to keep fairly quiet and think hard about it later. When I was under attack from my management, I kept a careful record of everything they'd said or done that seemed out of line, along with whatever analysis seemed relevent. It took me many hours, and I resented having to spend my own time on job-related activities, but it made me feel a lot safer, especially once I'd got a few palpable "crimes" documented.
But basically it's pretty tough, because it's hard to know how far you can go in fighting back without risking your livelihood. I also think that the world of work is basically a cruel environment in which the employee's well-being is given a hearbreakingly low priority. And that boss of yours sounds like a complete a**hole to me. I'd be tempted to hound him with criticisms about his homespun, sociopathic style of management, and see if I could take him down to rock bottom (wouldn't it be sweet to tell him it was for his own benefit really?) but frankly I'd probably just slag him off to other people and try to set up a counter attack behind his back. I'm not good at giving a measured challenge, and if I start on somebody who angers me that much, I confuse reasonable challenge with abuse, and even if they deserve abuse, I have to stay mindful of the legal position.
On the other hand, I've had some success by contradicting them in an apparently friendly manner, e.g. I might say "naw, I can't see much merit in that way of doing things" or "well if you insist we can do it that way, but frankly I'd be doing you a disservice if I told you I thought it was going to work." Or as Sgt. Wilson used to say to Captain Mainwaring in "Dad's Army," "Oh sir, do you think that's wise?" The undermining effect on Mainwaring's authority was powerful but completely non-confrontational. You'll also find that bullies and other bossy people often try to get you to nod or otherwise sanction their ideas as they speak - they'll kind of look at you expectantly for that little nod of agreeement, and it can be quite satisfying to watch them getting uncomfortable as you continue to look blank or say "it's an interesting idea.....I'll give it some thought" - they usually want you to agree on the spot but they don't normally have the power to expect it.
Don't forget that it's not a sacking offense (at least in the UK) to voice opinions that aren't in keeping with those of the boss. If I had a boss who did what yours does, and I said "frankly I doubt that your rock-bottom strategy is likely to do anything but de-motivate people. You may think you're doing me a favour, but having to put up with criticism about every damned thing I do just doesn't cut it with me. You'd do well to temper your criticisms with an equal amount of praise - after all, it's pretty well known that reward achieves more than punishment," then all I'm doing is offering constructive advice. But whether or not it's wise to be so blunt depends on how powerful your boss happens to be.
Spotting them is the hardest part. I can’t tell the difference between criticism because I’m messing up, somebody mad at me because I keep saying the wrong thing, or somebody who just enjoys tormenting other people. In my head, it’s all the same – “I did bad, so I have to fix it.”
It’s easy to make me double guess myself because I have a terrible memory. It’s not even that I don’t remember things. My memory is bad because the card-catalog in my head is illegible. So I remember two, three, four things at the same time and have to try to shuffle through to figure out which one is right. For example, name on Jovian moon. Well crap. Where does Callisto orbit, or Io, or Dione? Are they Jupiter or Saturn? Who wrote 1984, instantly in my head are all the 20th century dystopian authors, Orwell and Huxley, along with Heinlein, Saberhagen, Vonnegut, Dick – as well as apocalyptic authors like Schute, Brinkley and Stewart. It's not that my memory is bad, my memory suffers from the same inability to "filter out" the junk that my consciousness does. So I've tuned my intuition to catch the first idea. One of the first two ideas that pops in my head immediately after a question is right nearly all the time. I have to be quick enough to catch it before it is flooded out with the cascading pile of junk coming right behind it.
Plus, I also just naturally like people. I don’t like being around people, that’s different! But I’m so obsessively curious about everything, and individual people are interesting puzzles to learn about. So it’s just really hard to tell if somebody is being mean-spirited, or if I’m just not understanding and/or taking things the wrong way.
Generally, I find it's better to under react to other people's criticism.
Someone who likes tormenting people needs a willing victim who will play that game. If you refuse it, they can't hurt you.
If you like puzzles, you might enjoy working out how other people are pushing your buttons, and learning how to play the game better.
I suspect that if you'd simply sat through those little 'rock bottom' (sounds like something perverted) sessions, nodded your head and ignored everything your boss said, he would eventually have gone onto someone else, you would have kept on doing the same decent job, everything would still be in equilibrium.
Sounds like a problem of not valuing your own worth, judgement and opinions, and letting other people take advantage of that. You have to lose that nagging self critical voice, there's plenty of others out there to do that for ya.
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Another thing I notice is if someone is talking to you being all concerned and supportive about your issues and instead they go and tell it to others telling them what you said about this other person and your issues you had with him or her. That person is nothing but a back stabber. I don't think I would trust that person either if they are friends with this other person you had issues with. They can turn around and back stab you to their friend and be against you all of a sudden because they took their friend's side. But the problem is it's not always back stabbing but if the situation was very bad between you and this person and you were made out to be the bad guy and the person sided with that person, then I would call them back stabbers.
I hate it when people do this to me. Sometimes I think it's unintentional and the person just thought he or she was helping by telling this other person what I said about him or her just so he or she knows my side of the story and understand it better and then things are cool between us. Or they want to get two sides to the story so they ask this other person about it and it turns into a bigger mess for me. So I sometimes tell my online friends to not tell anyone this or that or tell this person this or that if I don't want it repeated.
Right now I am thinking someone who is talking to me on youtube is a spy regarding a situation what happened between me and this other person in 2004/2005 on MSN. I sure hope it isn't a spy. I also asked him to not repeat it to anyone nor to that person.
These days I am trusting online people less and less thinking they are out to get me or are trying to get something out of me and are pretending to be my friend or showing fake concern. So now I am being cynical about when I talk about things. I might just stop talking to this user telling him I think he might be a spy and he is friends with this other user or with this other person who is also friends with that user.
My boss and I shoot at the same gun club; he knows how good a shot I am
. Actually he's just a cool guy in general, in fact when I interview anymore it's as much for me to check out who I might be working for as for them to evaluate me, I simply won't work for anyone I get a bad vibe from. I've also stayed scrupulously far away from the sort of corporate jobs where the culture seems to allow petty jerks to fester and grow, I prefer semi-freelance occupations were everything is much more low key in general.
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Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
- Rick Sanchez
It can be hard to tell whether someone is being truly sadistic, or whether they're just blinded by their arrogance/power. Either case is hard to deal with if it's a superior. I'm pretty good at sniffing out "jerks" right away, but the problem is there's different levels of "jerk". Some you can learn to deal with on their own terms while others are truly horrible people who need to be confronted on their douchebaggery or avoided altogether if in any way possible. Unfortunately, only hindsight is always 20/20.
leejosepho
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
I have often done the same, and I once even accepted a job I was fairly sure would *not* work out just to get a first-hand look inside the place to be sure ... and I even told them that right up front.
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My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
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I was also bullied at work, and I figured out very quickly how to avoid it in the future.
Buy a 'voice recorder', and when your 'boss' tries to bully you, simply place the voice recorder on the desk between you and say "I don't have a good memory. That being the case, I'm going to record this conversation so that I don't forget any important details."
You will be amazed at how quickly a 'work based bully' will realize that any future attempt to bully you would likely result in their being fired.
Also send copies of the "conversation" to HR and state that a further copy has been dispatched to your attorney for his records.
Good Luck!
Buy a 'voice recorder', and when your 'boss' tries to bully you, simply place the voice recorder on the desk between you and say "I don't have a good memory. That being the case, I'm going to record this conversation so that I don't forget any important details."
You will be amazed at how quickly a 'work based bully' will realize that any future attempt to bully you would likely result in their being fired.
Also send copies of the "conversation" to HR and state that a further copy has been dispatched to your attorney for his records.
Good Luck!
_________________
Not currently a moderator
Buy a 'voice recorder', and when your 'boss' tries to bully you, simply place the voice recorder on the desk between you and say "I don't have a good memory. That being the case, I'm going to record this conversation so that I don't forget any important details."
You will be amazed at how quickly a 'work based bully' will realize that any future attempt to bully you would likely result in their being fired.
Also send copies of the "conversation" to HR and state that a further copy has been dispatched to your attorney for his records.
Good Luck!
Excellent. Adult bullying is often highly dependent on secrecy, so blowing their cover might well get them off your back. I've even had good results by openly writing down their words as they speak them......I said I was just making sure I understood the criticism/complaint well so that I could deal with it. If the criticisms are genuine, they'll welcome your commitment to better performance and they won't mind who finds out what they said.
Don't forget that it's not a sacking offense (at least in the UK) to voice opinions that aren't in keeping with those of the boss.
Wow! in Canada there is no consideration to what a "sacking offense" may be - yes if you have clearly done something wrong they can use that as a reason to fire you but this is not necessary, a boss can fire you if you do a perfect job - simply because they are in a bad mood that day, PMS," I just don't like you " etc are all perfectly acceptable reasons to fire someone, basically they don't have to continue to employ you if they don't want to, you are not entitled to keep your job no matter how fantastic a job you do.
One of the problems I have, is that I frequently can't tell when I'm being bullied. Adult bullies are much more savvy than kids. Nobody steals my lunch money, but a few time I've figured out that I was being bullied in the workplace.
For example. I had a boss who was just an all around crappy guy. He was a former cop who lost his job due to a minor accident and, I later learned, several disciplinary problems. Most of his employees were fresh-out of college, young, female IT geeks. I was the only male assigned to his team and only because they needed a modeling expert with multi-platform coding experience for a 3-year Credit Risk Management project. I was in my early 30's, not as naive as I was at 20, but not much more mature than a 20 year NT.
This guy liked to pick one employee at a time and make them into a special project. His goal was to "Help them find rock bottom", so they could better their life and build a stronger career. He genuinely though he was helping people by doing this. He did this by having sit-downs with the employee where he'd criticize every thing they do. No yelling, no screaming, just once or twice a week, a couple hours of critically ripping apart every piece of work you put out. I didn't realize what was up, why turnover was so high on the team, most people would last about 18 months. Then he decided it was my turn to be taken to "rock bottom".
Well crap. I had no idea why my work, which had been fine before, was suddenly so terrible. This went on for a few months, a couple times a week, he'd look at my schedule and stop over to grab me from my desk and walk me down to a conference room for a nice, pleasant deconstruction of my efforts. Nothing would be acceptable. Of course, being aspie, this means I began to over-work everything as I tried to keep my job, and my quality decline even further as I over-thought problems. Finally, he told me about his "rock bottom" plan during a meeting and it all clicked for me. All at once I figured out he was screwed up in the head and got kicks from this, it had nothing to do with the employees work. So I dropped my resume out there, left my job of seven years and was working at a new company within three weeks. I probably should have gone through HR and gotten him fired, but this kind of thing just doesn't occur to me.
How can you identify or avoid adult bullies?
It's not easy to avoid one if they are your boss. That's a tough situation, since people cannot afford to quit their job. You either put up with it or find someplace else to work. Sometimes you can work extra hard and get promoted. You might be able to transfer to another place within the company. If someone is determined to bully you, nothing you do aside from moving away or calling on a greater authority to make them stop seems to work.
Don't forget that it's not a sacking offense (at least in the UK) to voice opinions that aren't in keeping with those of the boss.
Wow! in Canada there is no consideration to what a "sacking offense" may be - yes if you have clearly done something wrong they can use that as a reason to fire you but this is not necessary, a boss can fire you if you do a perfect job - simply because they are in a bad mood that day, PMS," I just don't like you " etc are all perfectly acceptable reasons to fire someone, basically they don't have to continue to employ you if they don't want to, you are not entitled to keep your job no matter how fantastic a job you do.
Here's some basics on Unfair Dismissal law in the UK:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_dismissal
Under some circumstances you can even walk out of a job (without having been dismissed) and then claim "constructive dismissal":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal
As you'll see, the exact details of what they can and can't do are somewhat woolly. So it practice you need good legal advice on your specific case.
I'm shocked that Canada allows "fire-at-will." Canada always sounded like such a decent, left-wing kind of a place, though I heard she was moving gradually to the right.
