Should having friends be a "fundamental right"?

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But that person isn't a friend until you go up to them and become friends, so saying that person was a friend before you did that - while positive for those who desire more friends - is incorrect and illogical.

Incorrect? Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It depends on perspective. There is a saying, "A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet". While this saying is often not true, it also often is true, depending on the nature of the stranger. Optimistic extroverts live by that saying and they make it true often enough. They also grate on the nerves of some people here because sometimes posters have been on the recieving end of the optimistic extrovert's assumption that they are already friends even though they don't know each other well and in that case it is incorrect. But it is correct often enough that it is also a logical assumption to make rather than an illogical one. As long as a person keeps enough awareness not to befriend a dangerous person, it is logical to operate this way if you can.

Just because you act like that person was always your friend when you talk to them, it doesn't make it true.

The fact is this: before you befriend someone, they are not your friend. You can go up to someone, talk to them like you've been friends for ages, and probably get a good response from most NTs, but this does not mean that they were actually friends before you did that.

By your logic, I have a new phone just because I've seen one and I'd like to buy it.

Friendship involves a choice and free will.

We must resist all attempts to reduce humans to the level of machines, I know that some people try to suggest that the autist is no more than a machine but we are no more no less human as anyone else.

I hold the view that humans have free will, I have the ability to choose how to live my life. I also have free will to choose who I want to be friends with, for me to be friends with someone they also need to want to be friends with me,

I know what you mean because I can be absolutely nitpicky about the definitions of words too. It is the Broader Autism Phenotyope (presumably) in me. I've done it often enough in other threads. So I know where you are going with this because the case you are making is the same one I've made about other words and their definitions.

By the strict defintion of the word "friend", you have to already know somebody and they have to already have decided they have friendly feelings for you before you are- by the dictionary defintion- friends. But the saying "a stranger is a friend you haven't met yet" isn't about the dictionary defintion of friend, but rather about a way of looking at other people. It is about making a decision to assume that most of the people you meet could become your friends once you get to know them. It is an intentional and conscious blurring of the line between "actual" and "potential". While not strictly correct, it is certainly very logical. The person who behaves this way increases the number of friends they have simply by acting as though friendship is fait accompli. By the dictionary defintion of "friend", it is incorrect. But it is definately logical to behave in a way that greatly increases the number of friends you have. This is more about a way of interacting with people rather than a strict defintion of the word.

I'm an ambivert so I can see it from both ways. And I'm probably BAP (Broader AutismPhenotype) so I can truly understand why you are irritated by this lax use of the word "friend" which ignores the timeline of 1)meet the person 2)become friends. I even BAPishly opened my initial post to j6chan saying you can't technically have a right to friends because that would take away other peoples' rights to their own feelings. And it would. But to behave as though friendship were fait accompli will often make it so. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in many cases.

I get what you mean, and as I said, if you act like that, you're probably more likely to make friends as long as your social skills are good enough, but you're still deluding yourself in order to achieve that because you're making yourself believe a false reality. After all, you have no idea if that stranger you've just laid eyes on will end up being your best friend or your worst enemy.

No, I know how it feels to be forced to be someone's friend. There was a girl in my class at school who had a terminal illness, eppilepsy and a host of other conditions. My mom felt so sorry for her and wanted me to be friends with her even though the two of us had nothing in common and she was mentally, basicaly a toddler. My mom felt bad for her becuase the other kids were so mean to her. WTF? She should feel bad for me! I was her daughter and kids were worse to me because my disability wasn't visable. I was always nice to her but after my mom started to act as if she was her daughter, I shunned her out of jelously. When I tried to be friends with her, my best friend at the time threatned to abondon me and since she was my only friend I didn't want to risk it so I went back to shunning as well even though I knew it was wrong. I can somewhat understand why kids didn't want to be friends with me because they would be shunned by kids they were previously friends with.., but they had other friends as well and could afford to loose them whereas I only had one friend I couldn't afford to loose. Forcing someone to be friends with the weird kid is only going to make them harbor hateful feelings twoards them.

Certainly, and what I am trying to do here is to possibly help people get past feeling like victims so we can all re-consider the relationships and/or the conflicts between our common needs and desires for each other and our acceptances or rejections of each other.


Maybe not in a criminal sense, but that is not necessarily true. For example:

If everyone categorically "refuses friendship" with me just because I cannot stop my beard from growing, my common-to-all "right to friendship" has most certainly been violated.

Its kinda stupid how friendship needs to be "earned" like getting a driver's license or getting a job. Luckily (at least in some countries in the world) things like the right to NOT be tortured does not need to be "earned".

Not really. Friendship is about trust and you can't just automatically trust everyone.

Again, true. It requires self delusion. But I think some degree of self delusion is a good thing. Not entirely, since you can end up living in a fantasy world and get into dangerous situations because you refused to face that they could be dangerous. In this example, there is the risk of trying to befriend a person who will be dangerous to you. But a smidgen of self delusion and belief in false reality is what propels many people forward. The delusion that the universe can actually be understood by the human brain propels scientists forward. The delusion that "a stranger is a friend you haven't met" propels optimistic extroverts forward..and they make many friends. The delusion that we are able to survive a particular catastrophe or disease that jhas killed many before us is a fundamental part of the survival instinct

. Of course this delsuion that the odds are with us when they are actually against us also propels gamblers forward and bankrupts them. It's a double-edged sword. We do stupid things and incredibly wonderful things because of self- delusion. On balance I think a degree of self- delusion is actually a good thing for both individuals and the human race as a whole because we'd be practically inert without it. Some people say that clinical depression is the absolute stripping away of all self delusion. And it's crippling. We need to believe that what we do matters (even if a brutal examination of the cold truth would show it doesn't) and that we are making a mark in the world or it is impossible to get out of bed and go through the day.

I don't think I can argue with that. You make a very good point.

... such as not trusting people who place unreasonable expectations or intentionally-exclusive conditions on friendship.

Sometimes we are looking in the wrong places, and sometimes there really are no well-qualified candidates nearby and we just have to do the best we can with whoever or whatever is actually available.

We don't all have common needs and desires. You may desire a friend, but if he doesn't desire you as a friend, your desires are not "common."



People are allowed to not be your friend for any reason they wish. You have yet to establish you have a "right to frienndship" in the first place.



Depends on your definition of "friendship." My definition of friendship requires you earn it.

Last edited by XFilesGeek on 24 Oct 2010, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is my problem. I don't make friends easily, but some people are eager to become my friend. Because it is easy to make friends with someone who is eager to be one's friends, I go for it. Then, days or weeks later, I discover that they are dangerous. Then I am stuck in the position of having to figure out a way to get out of the friendship without making them angry.

Sadly, the life lesson this has imparted to me is that if someone is eager to be my friend, they are defective in some serious way that I should not overlook. So I actively try to avoid making friends since it has revealed itself to be a dangerous proposition. Every now and then I get so frustrated about not having friends that I forget and let someone in -- as I did just a few weeks ago -- and then end up hiding from them -- as I'm doing right now -- because I had forgotten that the people who want to be my friends are scary, dangerous people.

And that really sucks.

I agree with the OP to the extent that nobody should have to be alone constantly. I also agree with comments saying "That's not how the world works" although they're not very helpful and pretty obvious. I think the degree to which society is fragmented and community has largely been destroyed is a kind of "sickness" in modern society, and that has a very negative effect on everyone but especially on Aspies, IMO, who often find the gulf between people that exists now just too wide to cross.

If we lived in a world where we were more community minded - yes, I know, "that's not how the world works" - but if we did, then far fewer people would be left behind or ignored. We'd all feel a responsibility to each other to make sure everyone was included and felt a part of things - to the extent they wanted. Such communities used to exist, but they have been seriously eroded. Even within immediate families there is often little sense of community now. People work separately in different jobs, they come home and often go their separate ways, watch TV, go on computers, play video games. Strangers even in the same household, never mind with neighbours etc. The gulf between people has become truly massive, and this isolation breeds fear and distrust, even many NT's find it hard to deal with, I think, but for Aspies the problem is much, much worse.

I think modern Society is rather "sick" in this regard.