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Mdyar
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30 Jan 2011, 9:09 am

MarkMartino wrote:
Learning how one should respond isn't the same as responding instinctually. Training is not a cure.

But what do I know? Just my own experience. For me, it's clear that I mostly learned the right things to do to fake it, but never quite integrated them into me; they're still behaviors I learned and taught myself, and they succeed in seeming right to a lot of people, even though underneath I'm still puzzled and alien.


All people have universal commonalities. There is something common everyone can discuss that affects "our lives." The problem arises at the human interface- "communication."

There are a lot of implied areas in communication that leave me confused, as do I need more "precision;" and as an example 'the literal thinking' that many have, is a 'glitch' that I've overcomem, but it is more of a 'muscle memory' now, as I revert back to it now and again.

"Communication" has an unconscious protocol of when or how , as an art of persuasion and manners-or "empathy." For my self it's data based and any random moment would be fine to start downloading or uploading with questions, for example.

I've learned by conscious observation as to the "how and when," as there are hidden emotions underneath, and I lack the 'innate theory of mind' here.

The way I find myself thinking is that life or existence is merely a unit of information.

I do as the Romans do. I adapt.



Last edited by Mdyar on 30 Jan 2011, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alone
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30 Jan 2011, 9:33 am

The answer is yes and no.

AS is more about finding out how, the person I am, can develop. The movie with Templin is a good example. She did develop, in some ways, but other ways she remained stuck. I walk around in this world an adult of regular height but often feel the same as I did when I was six years old. I have the same thoughts even after years of life experiences. The world is still as baffling even with many learned definitions. I didn't have thoughts of a typical six year old then and I have not developed past those same thoughts today. But I have found the right things that I could develop.

It is worth it to find where and what can be developed. It took so much effort, courage, and drive that nothing can ever diminish it to me. It also helps me accept what doesn't develop and what won't develop. Parents need to find ways to accept what 'is' and support what 'can be' and be the cheerleaders we need to overcome the rest of the obstacles. I do hear and have experienced in my own family how much importance is placed on being normal. Well to that I say...be happy you know what that is and quit being disappointed I'm not getting it. Could we ever dwell on what I rock at???

AS has elements of developmental disorders, hitchhikers of anxiety disorders, all of which have a probability of treatment or cure. But it also has elements that just 'are', and are not going to change. I don't know if parents of AS kids realise there is no 'cure'. There is no therapy to get rid of it, no drug, just hard work to find the right fit.

:oops:



Last edited by alone on 30 Jan 2011, 9:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

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30 Jan 2011, 9:37 am

I put for your consideration my life as an example;

As a child I was a mute, despite being very smart I had problems with learning particularly in chaotic environments, I had OCD, social anxiety, didn't understand any social norms, meltdowns at least once an hour, I was unable to bathe myself, unable to use the toilet correctly, unable to feed myself properly, and I had no concept of other people being people like me rather they were things to be interacted with rather like inanimate objects.

The list goes on. I was a little being in my own world, totally cut-off from the rest of the world, I would say that as a child I was closer to that of a classically autistic child...as an adult I can practically pass as an NT, I'm more independent and capable of living a normal life than many NT's I know, I have learned how to respond and act towards others, but as someone else here has said it is not the same as instinctual response.

This is what lead me to discovering asperger's, I had gotten over all these issues from my childhood, but there were still these smaller things that were limiting me - for example difficulty with eye contact, maintaining friendships, don't understand 'fun', can't start or maintain conversations very easily, can't small-talk/chat, etc. It had been thought this was down to social anxiety, that because I was mute etc. for so long (I give 7 years old as a sudden eureka moment in my life when everything somehow started to click) that I was 7 years behind everyone else socially/developmentally. If it had been something like social anxiety I may have been able to overcome these issues, but I hadn't...thus it has to be something more, something like autism which can't be overcome but is something fundamentally different about how my brain functions.

I have no doubt that many aspects of autism can be overcome, we have less of an understanding of social norms so we are behind others, behaviour is taught, social norms are taught, but those things are taught...it's like the difference between just memorising information and actually learning information, the former will never have applied knowledge.


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Another_Alien
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30 Jan 2011, 9:47 am

MidlifeAspie wrote:
You can't develop "out" of autism, but with age and maturity come coping strategies that can be almost as good as instincts.


I disagree with this, with respect. A mistake that many (maybe most) people on WP make is to think of ASD as being 'fixed', i.e. you're born with a certain degree of ASD, and you're stuck with it. However, the Autistic brain does develop, albeit slowly. It IS possible to improve to the degree that you're no longer Autistic by diagnostic standards, and, therefore, effectively normal. This has happened to me (check my earlier threads/postings). My ASD was probably more severe than 95% of people on WP when I was a teenager, and now I'm 'normal' (and I'm 100% certain that this isn't because of 'coping strategies'). In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).



Yensid
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30 Jan 2011, 11:20 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
I wasn't saying that my experience was universal, I was just describing how things are for me.


I was simply contrasting my experience to yours. I didn't mean to imply that you were saying something more than what you were saying. Sorry for the confusion.



Yensid
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30 Jan 2011, 11:29 am

Another_Alien wrote:
A mistake that many (maybe most) people on WP make is to think of ASD as being 'fixed', i.e. you're born with a certain degree of ASD, and you're stuck with it. However, the Autistic brain does develop, albeit slowly. It IS possible to improve to the degree that you're no longer Autistic by diagnostic standards, and, therefore, effectively normal. This has happened to me (check my earlier threads/postings). My ASD was probably more severe than 95% of people on WP when I was a teenager, and now I'm 'normal' (and I'm 100% certain that this isn't because of 'coping strategies'). In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).


My experience is different. I don't think that my abilities have changed at all over the years. I believe that every bit of progress -- and I have made a lot -- has been obtained by studying that strange creature, the human animal. I have learned a lot about how they behave in response to various stimuli. I have learned how I respond to various stimuli. But that has not brought with it any sort of instinctive understanding, which I believe that NTs have.

Which is not to invalidate your experience. I just don't happen to think that I developed in the same way.



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30 Jan 2011, 11:39 am

Another_Alien wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
You can't develop "out" of autism, but with age and maturity come coping strategies that can be almost as good as instincts.


I disagree with this, with respect. A mistake that many (maybe most) people on WP make is to think of ASD as being 'fixed', i.e. you're born with a certain degree of ASD, and you're stuck with it. However, the Autistic brain does develop, albeit slowly. It IS possible to improve to the degree that you're no longer Autistic by diagnostic standards, and, therefore, effectively normal. This has happened to me (check my earlier threads/postings). My ASD was probably more severe than 95% of people on WP when I was a teenager, and now I'm 'normal' (and I'm 100% certain that this isn't because of 'coping strategies'). In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).


I find this very interesting as I have never heard another AS say anything like this. So, with enough time to develop you began to instinctively understand social cues? You no longer have to interpret facial expression and non-verbal communication, but rather these things are instinctive to you so you understand them even in strangers? You no longer have any negative reaction to sensory input that used to cause you pain and discomfort? You no longer feel anxiety when confronted with breaks in your usual routine? Do you even have a usual routine anymore?

If this is the case then I think that is fantastic for you. I also think that your experience is outside what most of us can expect.



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30 Jan 2011, 11:58 am

Yensid wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
A mistake that many (maybe most) people on WP make is to think of ASD as being 'fixed', i.e. you're born with a certain degree of ASD, and you're stuck with it. However, the Autistic brain does develop, albeit slowly. It IS possible to improve to the degree that you're no longer Autistic by diagnostic standards, and, therefore, effectively normal. This has happened to me (check my earlier threads/postings). My ASD was probably more severe than 95% of people on WP when I was a teenager, and now I'm 'normal' (and I'm 100% certain that this isn't because of 'coping strategies'). In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).


My experience is different. I don't think that my abilities have changed at all over the years. I believe that every bit of progress -- and I have made a lot -- has been obtained by studying that strange creature, the human animal. I have learned a lot about how they behave in response to various stimuli. I have learned how I respond to various stimuli. But that has not brought with it any sort of instinctive understanding, which I believe that NTs have.

Which is not to invalidate your experience. I just don't happen to think that I developed in the same way.


I should have added one caveat. I believe that, broadly speaking, there are two types of Aspies:

1 - Those who are relatively mature (by Aspie standards), but are introverted and have poor social instincts/skills, i.e. the typical nerd.

2 - Those who are more extroverted, with relatively good social instincts/skills (by Aspie standards), but are very immature in relation to their biological age. These Aspies are often creative people, rather than science nerds, but are clownish and 'daydreamy'.

Obviously, these are broad categories, and not everyone falls perfectly into one category or the other. However, I do fall perfectly into the second (or I did before my improvement). It sounds as though you're more typical of the first type.

I believe people in the second category are more likely to improve, i.e. it's easier for a childish person to (eventually) acquire a general sense of maturity/awareness than it is for a very introverted person to become extroverted.



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30 Jan 2011, 11:58 am

The hemispherical disconnects in the brain associated with most autistic conditions cannot be fixed. However, the capacities of us Aspies to memorize speech sequences, facial expressions, and more allow us to 'fit in' better than we were as children or young adults. I am almost 35 and am successful in most situations. That being said, however, my shortcomings in conversation or in complex social situations requires a great deal of concentration to handle. I still miss every third word in a conversation with background noise and when the person's lips are not visible for me to reinforce what is being said with lip reading.

My special interest has become left/right/ENS impaired conditions with Aspergers at the top of the list. My daughter was just diagnosed.



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30 Jan 2011, 12:18 pm

MidlifeAspie wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
You can't develop "out" of autism, but with age and maturity come coping strategies that can be almost as good as instincts.


I disagree with this, with respect. A mistake that many (maybe most) people on WP make is to think of ASD as being 'fixed', i.e. you're born with a certain degree of ASD, and you're stuck with it. However, the Autistic brain does develop, albeit slowly. It IS possible to improve to the degree that you're no longer Autistic by diagnostic standards, and, therefore, effectively normal. This has happened to me (check my earlier threads/postings). My ASD was probably more severe than 95% of people on WP when I was a teenager, and now I'm 'normal' (and I'm 100% certain that this isn't because of 'coping strategies'). In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).


I find this very interesting as I have never heard another AS say anything like this. So, with enough time to develop you began to instinctively understand social cues? You no longer have to interpret facial expression and non-verbal communication, but rather these things are instinctive to you so you understand them even in strangers? You no longer have any negative reaction to sensory input that used to cause you pain and discomfort? You no longer feel anxiety when confronted with breaks in your usual routine? Do you even have a usual routine anymore?

If this is the case then I think that is fantastic for you. I also think that your experience is outside what most of us can expect.


Thanks. Please read my second post on this thread, which I wrote before I read your comments above. My experience of AS wasn't entirely as you describe, and I don't believe every Autistic individual experiences the condition in the same way. I've always been an extrovert, and never really had big problems with social cues and routines. However, I was a 'little professor', I hated bright light/loud noises and suffered with anxiety/panic attacks. My biggest problem, by far, though, was being extremely immature for my age. As a result I became withdrawn, even though I wanted to interract, because I wasn't mature enough to successfully engage with my peers. Also, I was an aimless daydreamer, with little sense of purpose. The importance of academic studies, career, etc., never seemed to occur to me, and I was a massive underachiever. My condition began to improve VERY gradually in my twenties, then I experienced a dramatic surge of improvement about 6-12 months ago. Essentially, it took me until my early forties to stop being Peter Pan and grow up.

There are others on WP who I believe have a similar experience of ASD - creative and immature, but not necessarily introverted (IdahoRose maybe?).

And I can identify very strongly with this description of Autism, as opposed to the standard interpretation:

http://autism.about.com/od/causesofauti ... mBrain.htm



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30 Jan 2011, 5:47 pm

I am better with some social cues such as because of how often this has occured, known when not to trust that someone is being VERY friendly because they really want to be your friend and care about how you are doing and what is going on in your life.

On the flipside, I don't understand if someone is joking all the time, don't get when someone is flirting, don't get when someone of the opposite sex is into me.

I can do some multi-tasking now while talking on the phone such as clean the kitchen.

On the flipside, I can not carry on a conversation with sounds in the background such as a tv, music, smacking or other such sounds.

I can talk on the phone now. I hate initiating phone calls but I end up taking a deep breath before doing it.

On the flipside, the whole time I am nervous meanwhile my voice is not showing that, fidgeting, pacing back and forth. I used to only send emails or do IMs. Now I don't do IM's anymore at all. I flipped on one switch and the other turned off completely.

Progress right?

When someone reads texts about autism, it is often misinterpreted vs. someone who actually is on the autistic spectrum. When people read for example "lack of empathy" it instantly means "Lack of compassion" "Lack of feelings"

When really it would help if someone would write the lengthier definition of the version of empathy which actually affects someone with autism. Now alot of us have to face these horrible stereotypes that aren't true.



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30 Jan 2011, 11:19 pm

TheygoMew wrote:
I am better with some social cues such as because of how often this has occured, known when not to trust that someone is being VERY friendly because they really want to be your friend and care about how you are doing and what is going on in your life.

On the flipside, I don't understand if someone is joking all the time, don't get when someone is flirting, don't get when someone of the opposite sex is into me.

I can do some multi-tasking now while talking on the phone such as clean the kitchen.

On the flipside, I can not carry on a conversation with sounds in the background such as a tv, music, smacking or other such sounds.

I can talk on the phone now. I hate initiating phone calls but I end up taking a deep breath before doing it.

On the flipside, the whole time I am nervous meanwhile my voice is not showing that, fidgeting, pacing back and forth. I used to only send emails or do IMs. Now I don't do IM's anymore at all. I flipped on one switch and the other turned off completely.

Progress right?

When someone reads texts about autism, it is often misinterpreted vs. someone who actually is on the autistic spectrum. When people read for example "lack of empathy" it instantly means "Lack of compassion" "Lack of feelings"

When really it would help if someone would write the lengthier definition of the version of empathy which actually affects someone with autism. Now alot of us have to face these horrible stereotypes that aren't true.


I couldn't carry on a conversation with background noise over the phone either...which was a problem working as sprint customer service because there would be often background noise on my end and the other end. A lot of time I would not say anything at all because I cannot think or function with the noise. Needless to say a bad job for me =/.....and as bad as it was I would still like to have kept it but I wasn't fast enough.

Good suggestion for phone calls, I get afraid before I make a phone call. You'd think I would have gotten better from working for a phone company but i think it has made it worse. I severed all connections wireless or not for awhile. I have my phone back not but I use it maybe once a week if that. Also when I was on calls at sprint it was all on a computer, kind of strange to think......and I had a headset- I wanted to take the headset home with me because it was nice.


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31 Jan 2011, 12:11 am

When it comes to socializing, I've probably regressed some. I have made tremendous strides in other areas.



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31 Jan 2011, 12:29 am

Another_Alien wrote:
In fact, I'd be surprised if there's anyone on WP who's 40+ who hasn't experienced some significant improvement over the years (very, very, severe cases of Autism don't improve, and may get worse, but people who are this severe aren't on WP).


Two things:

1) I'm 41 and actually had increased severity several years ago, which hasn't really improved since. I can think of at least two others who are in similar situations. I guess I have learned to socialize better, but most of that was before I turned 30. I've also had some increased severity in the past two months, but I expect that is likely temporary once the cause is no longer present. At least I hope it's temporary.

2) People that severe are on WP. I can think of one right offhand. She's indicated that others are less likely to come here not because they're unable to use computers, but because the atmosphere here is not particularly conducive or friendly to them. One example is how frequently posters here automatically assume they're completely incapable of such things.



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31 Jan 2011, 3:01 am

Verdandi wrote:
) I'm 41 and actually had increased severity several years ago, which hasn't really improved since. I can think of at least two others who are in similar situations. I guess I have learned to socialize better, but most of that was before I turned 30. I've also had some increased severity in the past two months, but I expect that is likely temporary once the cause is no longer present. At least I hope it's temporary.


I was going to say that I was surprised to hear this, but upon further thought, I'm not surprised. I find that during times of stress, I tend to stagnate at best, and sometimes to regress. Old, bad habits can return. This emphasizes to me that all of my gains are improvements in my coping strategy. The fundamental flaw in my brain still remains untouched.



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31 Jan 2011, 3:22 am

There's been talk about burnout here and there, the stress from trying to function at NT levels over long periods of time. I was functioning at one level during my 20s, hit my 30s, hit a wall three times, and have been functioning at a different level ever since.

At the time it happened, I felt like I had definitely pushed myself too hard and burned out, but I couldn't really explain how or why that was possible and decided upon denial, did it two more times, and then more denial and some depression as well.