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Do you think that the MMR vaccine causes autism?
Poll ended at 07 Feb 2012, 1:50 pm
Yes 5%  5%  [ 6 ]
Yes 5%  5%  [ 6 ]
No 45%  45%  [ 59 ]
No 45%  45%  [ 59 ]
Total votes : 130

StuartN
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08 Feb 2011, 4:53 am

Qatsi64 wrote:
So, to summarize, it isn't new, and it isn't evidence.


... and there must be excellent reasons why this research has not been published.



Joe90
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26 Feb 2011, 5:08 pm

Well apparently I had the MMR at about 13 months old, and literally ever since I had the injection my personality changed from the very day, from placid to miserable.

Explain that!


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Qatsi64
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26 Feb 2011, 5:21 pm

As has been explained on WP in numerous threads, the onset of autism (or when it starts to be noticeable) happens around the time that MMR is given. People looking for a "reason" see the 2 happening near the same time, and confuse correlation with causation. Many studies have looked for a link, and none have found them.

This doesn't mean vaccines are always safe. I actually suffered a real (as opposed to the imaginary MMR issues) problem directly related to a vaccine I received. Unfortunately, I am at just the right age to have received a very early version of the Measels vaccine called the Killed Measels Virus vaccine. This is known to have caused "Atypical Measels Syndrome". I got very sick, in the hospital for a week with pneumonia, spiked a fever over 105, was pretty close to dying thanks to a doctor who wouldn't see me (was later admitted by my pediatrician). It is also known for sometimes causing brain damage, and my parents claim that I was a bit altered by the experience, though I have no tests to show that.

That said, I am totally in favor of vaccination. Cost/benefit is clearly on the side of vaccinating. There is lots of evidence showing this.



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26 Feb 2011, 5:33 pm

Wakefields is a quack and a charlatan and should be run out of town on a rail. This supposed research is tabloid trash scaring parents away from an important vaccine that benefits both the vaccinated individual as well as the overall society. I have about as much interest in Wakefields' feeble attempts to redeem his hoax through more attention whoring as I have interest in hearing about plus-sized Dr. Phil's weight loss tips.



wefunction
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26 Feb 2011, 5:36 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Well apparently I had the MMR at about 13 months old, and literally ever since I had the injection my personality changed from the very day, from placid to miserable.

Explain that!


Which would you like me to disprove, your insinuation that the MMR made you a miserable human being or your insinuation that Autism and being miserable are the same thing?



Joe90
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26 Feb 2011, 5:56 pm

wefunction wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
Well apparently I had the MMR at about 13 months old, and literally ever since I had the injection my personality changed from the very day, from placid to miserable.

Explain that!


Which would you like me to disprove, your insinuation that the MMR made you a miserable human being or your insinuation that Autism and being miserable are the same thing?


No I was a very happy baby, until I had the injection and from that very day onwards I kept on screaming and crying. I'm not saying that being miserable means Autism - I was saying that I changed very abruptly and suddenly since the very day I had the injection. The MMR must have something to do with me having an Autistic stupid brain if my personality changed since the very day I had the injection. The matter isn't what the personalities were - it's more the fact that I changed from being one to another - and it all changed in the same day.

Oh my god....if I never had the injection then I would have been NT just like everybody else in the family....I would have fitted in at school....and I wouldn't have been the Class Freak.....oh my god this really panics me if I think too deeply about it. I curse whoever gave me this injection to damage my NT brain!! !! (The NT brain I had to begin with!! !) :evil:


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26 Feb 2011, 6:15 pm

Joe90 wrote:

No I was a very happy baby, until I had the injection and from that very day onwards I kept on screaming and crying.


Almost every infant becomes cranky fro a few days after a vaccination. All 3 of my children did. None of them are ASD.

Quote:
I'm not saying that being miserable means Autism - I was saying that I changed very abruptly and suddenly since the very day I had the injection. The MMR must have something to do with me having an Autistic stupid brain if my personality changed since the very day I had the injection.


This is THE fundamental error almost everyone makes in determining root cause. Correlation DOES NOT prove causation. It is easy to develop scenarios that would explain this correlation, from the absurd (your mom dropped you on your head that day and never told anybody) to the most like;y - you received your vaccination at an age where autism begins to manifest even in those that aren't vaccinated.

Quote:
The matter isn't what the personalities were - it's more the fact that I changed from being one to another - and it all changed in the same day.


Almost every parent will attest to a change in their baby when they are vaccinated. Sometimes it is dramatic and within hours. It almost always goes away.

Quote:
Oh my god....if I never had the injection then I would have been NT just like everybody else in the family....I would have fitted in at school....and I wouldn't have been the Class Freak.....oh my god this really panics me if I think too deeply about it. I curse whoever gave me this injection to damage my NT brain!! !! (The NT brain I had to begin with!! !) :evil:


Uh. Are you just being facetious?


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Feb 2011, 6:17 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
- you received your vaccination at an age where autism begins to manifest even in those that aren't vaccinated.


Some people claim the unvaccinated do not get autism.



draelynn
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26 Feb 2011, 6:18 pm

I just do not understand these circular arguments over these studies. At no point did any of them insinuate that all autism is caused by vaccines. The studies simply found artificially created live strain measles virus as used in the vaccine in the guts of a disturbing number of autistic children whose familiy reported a dramatic change AFTER immunization.

Does this mean ALL children are affected by the vaccine? - no. That wasn't even vaguely implied.
Did ANYONE recommend NOT vaccinating children? - no. People made ill informed choices on data that had been convoluted by the media.
Does this mean ALL autism/asperger's is 'created' by vaccines. - no. Autism existed long before vaccines.

All this study suggests is that there may be a link between sudden onset autism and the MMR vaccine - it is a possible side effect caused by system wide inflammation in reaction to the contraction of measles in the gut. The findings of these three studies should be further investigated if they could help some children. The US Department of Health and Human Services doesn't maintain the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program without reason. Several families who could prove their childs autism resulted from the MMR vaccine have already been compensated under this program. It is happening. Someone needs to look for a way to prevent injury while still protecting us at the same time.



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26 Feb 2011, 6:19 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
- you received your vaccination at an age where autism begins to manifest even in those that aren't vaccinated.


Some people claim the unvaccinated do not get autism.


I did not get the MMR. I am ASD.

So much for that theory.


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26 Feb 2011, 6:29 pm

draelynn wrote:
I just do not understand these circular arguments over these studies. At no point did any of them insinuate that all autism is caused by vaccines. The studies simply found artificially created live strain measles virus as used in the vaccine in the guts of a disturbing number of autistic children whose familiy reported a dramatic change AFTER immunization.

Does this mean ALL children are affected by the vaccine? - no. That wasn't even vaguely implied.
Did ANYONE recommend NOT vaccinating children? - no. People made ill informed choices on data that had been convoluted by the media.
Does this mean ALL autism/asperger's is 'created' by vaccines. - no. Autism existed long before vaccines.

All this study suggests is that there may be a link between sudden onset autism and the MMR vaccine - it is a possible side effect caused by system wide inflammation in reaction to the contraction of measles in the gut. The findings of these three studies should be further investigated if they could help some children. The US Department of Health and Human Services doesn't maintain the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program without reason. Several families who could prove their childs autism resulted from the MMR vaccine have already been compensated under this program. It is happening. Someone needs to look for a way to prevent injury while still protecting us at the same time.


The study was falsified and discredited. There is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine. There is no such thing as "sudden onset autism." Some autistic children appear to have sudden onset, but it is in all likelihood simply that child's developmental trajectory. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists because vaccinations can cause injury, but is not specifically related to autism at all.

This table describes the kind of expected injuries: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm

If any injuries were paid to families because of a belief that MMR caused their child to be autistic, it was based on fraudulent science and public relations, not because anyone's autism was actually caused by vaccines.



cave_canem
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26 Feb 2011, 6:53 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Well apparently I had the MMR at about 13 months old, and literally ever since I had the injection my personality changed from the very day, from placid to miserable.

Explain that!


Ok, I'll try to explain it.
Recall bias on the part of your parents is a plausible explanation.

See also publication bias to understand how the impact of studies like Wakefield's, although fraudulent, have more impact than those that show no causal link between vaccinations and autism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias



draelynn
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26 Feb 2011, 7:38 pm

Verdandi wrote:
draelynn wrote:
I just do not understand these circular arguments over these studies. At no point did any of them insinuate that all autism is caused by vaccines. The studies simply found artificially created live strain measles virus as used in the vaccine in the guts of a disturbing number of autistic children whose familiy reported a dramatic change AFTER immunization.

Does this mean ALL children are affected by the vaccine? - no. That wasn't even vaguely implied.
Did ANYONE recommend NOT vaccinating children? - no. People made ill informed choices on data that had been convoluted by the media.
Does this mean ALL autism/asperger's is 'created' by vaccines. - no. Autism existed long before vaccines.

All this study suggests is that there may be a link between sudden onset autism and the MMR vaccine - it is a possible side effect caused by system wide inflammation in reaction to the contraction of measles in the gut. The findings of these three studies should be further investigated if they could help some children. The US Department of Health and Human Services doesn't maintain the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program without reason. Several families who could prove their childs autism resulted from the MMR vaccine have already been compensated under this program. It is happening. Someone needs to look for a way to prevent injury while still protecting us at the same time.


The study was falsified and discredited. There is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine. There is no such thing as "sudden onset autism." Some autistic children appear to have sudden onset, but it is in all likelihood simply that child's developmental trajectory. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists because vaccinations can cause injury, but is not specifically related to autism at all.

This table describes the kind of expected injuries: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm

If any injuries were paid to families because of a belief that MMR caused their child to be autistic, it was based on fraudulent science and public relations, not because anyone's autism was actually caused by vaccines.


One study was discredited but not the other three that replicated its results independently. I'm no scientist. I'm not a doctor. But if there is a chance that injury can be prevented, it should be investigated.

Vaccine injury awards:
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/ ... nsmmrcase/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-2 ... 91695.html
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/ ... smuscourt/

The CDC had a vested interest in proving these claims as FALSE, yet they were not. Every monetary award further opens up big pharm to litigation and a population to panic.
Look into the studies from Dr John O'Leary, Dr Stephen Walker and Dr. Vijendra Singha if you are interested in the science of it. Again - no one is suggesting that vaccines cause autism - more that some children who have been diagnosed autistic may actually be suffering from autoimmune inflammation caused by the vaccine. I had my daughter vaccinated. Looking back, I saw signs and symptoms of Asperger's in her as early as 8 months. I had her vaccinated - albeit slowly - small doses over a much longer period that the one-and-done method. I wouldn't think to claim that her Asperger's is anything but good old family genetics. But I do beleive it is possible that some of this sudden rise in diagnoses may have another cause - this being one of them.



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26 Feb 2011, 8:09 pm

No studies replicated the results that vaccinations caused autism or autistic-like symptoms. Finding bacteria doesn't demonstrate anything - but it is notable that a lot of people who are on the autistic spectrum have digestive problems, and this could in some way be related without the need to claim that correlation equals causation. Also, as far as I know, the studies you're referencing had no controls.

Not proving a claim as false is not the same as proving the claim is true. What can be demonstrated in a court does not necessarily equate to what can be demonstrated in a laboratory.



draelynn
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26 Feb 2011, 8:29 pm

No one is claiming vaccines cause autism. I believe the Utah and Wake Forest studies did have control groups. All they showed was that the children in the study had live measles virus vaccine from the MMR strain in their gut and that that infection caused encephalitis. The studies did not claim the vaccines caused autism - that leap of logic was made by the media. One of the more successful injury cases was argued using this science. Autism was not even in her medical reports even though the girl displayed all the classic signs. Cases of children 'cured' of autism have been cases where system wide imflammation had been reduced or eliminated.

There is no cure for autism. I firmly believe it is a normal genetic variation. What the studies show - if anything - is that inflammation can cause autistic like symptoms in some children and that it may be possible to cure them of the inflammation and underlying disease and return function to them. Determining the genetic variance that leaves some children susceptable to this particular vaccine injury would be extremely helpful. I'm promoting vaccine safety for children. I'm not a 'cure autism' advocate.

Vaccines do not cause autism. I'm agreeing with you.



WorldsEdge
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26 Feb 2011, 9:10 pm

draelynn wrote:
No one is claiming vaccines cause autism. I believe the Utah and Wake Forest studies did have control groups.


As has already been pointed out on this thread, no study out of Wake Forest associated with Walker and his 2006 comments has EVER been published on autism and MMR.

Here's the link, since I guess you missed it the first time.


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