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Jediscraps
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06 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

Here's my issue with this.

Happiness = the truth

I say happiness is the truth, because the prevailing attitude is to change your thoughts, to make you happy.

This feeling of being happy is therefore paramount and of higher value which your thoughts should be built around.

If you are unhappy, anxious, depressed, in other words negative kind of a feeling, something is wrong with your own thoughts.

But, what if negative feelings are telling you something about your environment.

A wife who is treated badly in a relationship may be having negative feelings. The professional may say that she doesn't have to put up with such treatment and may leave or fix it if possible. In this sort of situation it is seen as the environment/situation as a significant affect on her mood and it would help to change that environment. She may also have thoughts which are irrational or inaccurate which may cause problems as well though.

Now expand this to the societal level and how each person survives and lives their life in their social and economic environment and particular situations.

What if people have negative feelings because of their environment, even the structure of their society and it's values? What if these people are then told to change their thoughts about it to become happy (positive feelings)?

Couldn't this idea of seeing positive feelings as the truth to gear your thoughts and feelings around be a way for people to adapt to a situation that their own self finds ill fitting (for whatever reason)?

You can't escape this environment because it is everywhere almost like air, it is the atmosphere.

I see this as man being built for the institution, the structure, the economy, the environment, instead of having these things built for man.

I would prefer genuine happiness. I would be more genuinely happier if the environment was built around higher values.

I've thought a lot about these things for a long time. I've taken a long time to explain these things to a counselor and he's working with me on this.



wavefreak58
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06 Jul 2011, 12:02 pm

Jediscraps wrote:
Here's my issue with this.

Happiness = the truth


If absolute truth were accessible to me I suppose this might be a useful rubric. But truth is highly dependent on perspective.


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Jediscraps
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06 Jul 2011, 12:06 pm

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If absolute truth were accessible to me I suppose this might be a useful rubric. But truth is highly dependent on perspective.


You misunderstand me.

Gearing thoughts towards happy feelings is saying that it's the happy feelings which are the truth.

What if there is genuinely something to feel bad about?



Sweetleaf
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06 Jul 2011, 12:08 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
The two are not mutually exclusive.

Being happy is a CHOICE.

How you choose to look at your situation = how you feel about it.

Being poor is not a reason to be happy compared to being rich, but rich people are rarely "happy." Likewise, many people in poverty learn to be happy in spite of their situation.

If you knew you had a terminal condition with only 12 months left to live, you'd not be "happy" about it, but as you come to terms with it, you can reach a place of acceptance and peace and be "happy" because you adjust to the circumstances.


Well my chronic depression kind of takes that choice away from me....even if things are good I can feel like crap, unless I medictate myself or happen to be having an especially good day and naturally feeling mildly content. but I have accepted it and do not feel sorry for myself because I have depression......I mean it was genetics and environment......it was not god(who I used to belive in) punishing me so I cannot have the 'why me' response anymore.



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06 Jul 2011, 12:13 pm

Amajanshi wrote:
TB wrote:
Amajanshi wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Experiments have shown that acting happy can actually make you happier. It turns out that attitude matters and effects brain chemistry.

This is not the same as denial in the face of negative events.


Do you have the links to the studies? I'm curious about this.

I think in the case of ASD individuals it may be different. If acting happy can make you happier, then there wouldn't be so many ASD individuals with depression who in the past tried very hard to "fake their act" to fit in with NTs, and they wouldn't be attached to their special interests as strongly because they could just act happy without engaging in it.

I think it's healthier to be grateful (not "happy happy") for the things that you do have and aim for a state of "general well being" (Eudaimonia I think) so you can try to have less issues to work on, as opposed to "acting happy" because that term sounds more dishonest.


This is a very well known thing, there have been tons of experiments where people had to hold a pen in their mouth wich activated similair muscles to when people are laughing and it increased their mood.

http://myloveforyou.typepad.com/my_love ... -more.html


Can you or anybody please offer links to Peer-Reviewed medical papers (eg on Pubmed listings) regarding this matter?

I remember in primary school when a teacher told me to "smile" and stop looking sad even though I was feeling perfectly fine and it was my neutral expression, my usual flat effect. She claimed that just faking a smile releases endorphins which make you feel good, but when I fake a smile, that doesn't occur at all. Instead, it made my facial muscles tired. I'll have to do further investigations on this as I believe there was a study that discredited this.

Certainly neurologically there's a difference between a "Duchenne's smile" (real, auto-smile) and a "Fake Smile", as the "Duchenne's smile" also involves contraction of other facial muscles which contributed to the look associated with genuine happiness.


I just feel ridiculous trying to fake smile......I mean I never feel quite the way people describe as 'happy' on good days I feel rather numb or at best mildly content and neither of those are really much of an occasion to cause smiling. I really only smile if I am laughing or if I am playing with a cute puppy, kitten or other animal.



Lene
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06 Jul 2011, 12:47 pm

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Doctors write prescriptions all the time for drugs to make us happy.


Actually, they write prescriptions to make people less depressed. There's a difference. Most antidepressants only work if you are moderate-severely depressed to begin with; taking them if you do not suffer from depression doesn't really help.

Anxiolytics can (and often are) misused, but I wouldn't call their effect 'happiness'.
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they constantly pester me "Gee, you sure seem happy!" "Wow, who pissed in your cheerios?" And my favorite "what's wrong?" Nothings wrong! I'm not broken, and I'm not mentally defective. I just refuse to act happy when I'm not. Anyone else have this experience?


This is annoying and I've had it pulled on me before too. Nothing pisses me off like being told to SMILE!!

Practice in the mirror though; that's what loads of people do. Once you get the muscle-memory, it's easier to turn it on and off.



wavefreak58
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06 Jul 2011, 1:45 pm

Jediscraps wrote:
Quote:
If absolute truth were accessible to me I suppose this might be a useful rubric. But truth is highly dependent on perspective.


You misunderstand me.

Gearing thoughts towards happy feelings is saying that it's the happy feelings which are the truth.

What if there is genuinely something to feel bad about?


Maybe we are talking about two different things. Happiness as a general characteristic of a life is different than happiness about specific events within that life. It can be very sad to lose a loved one to cancer. But I can become bitter or find reasons to honor the memory. Neither undoes the loss. The second leads to a happier life.


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SammichEater
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06 Jul 2011, 4:11 pm

This sort of crap makes me sick. Happiness isn't a choice. Pretending to be happy doesn't make you happy. Thinking happy things doesn't cause happy things to happen. To anyone who honestly believes that, do you have, or are you planning on getting a degree from a clown college?

If I'm pissed off, then you better believe I'm going to be pissed off. I see absolutely no point in pretending to be happy just because I should want to be happy.


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wavefreak58
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06 Jul 2011, 4:17 pm

SammichEater wrote:
This sort of crap makes me sick. Happiness isn't a choice. Pretending to be happy doesn't make you happy. Thinking happy things doesn't cause happy things to happen. To anyone who honestly believes that, do you have, or are you planning on getting a degree from a clown college?

If I'm pissed off, then you better believe I'm going to be pissed off. I see absolutely no point in pretending to be happy just because I should want to be happy.


Bwhahaha ...

Science is proving you wrong. Now I wish I had preserved the references.

Acting happy when your not actually happy changes your mental state and you become more genuinely happy. And furthermore, people respond more positively to a happier person and this response will cause people to do things differently. So acting happy DOES cause happy things to happen.

But I'm betting this doesn't make you very happy.


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Janissy
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06 Jul 2011, 4:24 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
[Science is proving you wrong. Now I wish I had preserved the references.

.


Indeed. I'd read this in the pop science magazines "Discover" and Psychology Today" which give the researchers' names and where you can find the research but don't publish the research itself. It seems counter-intuitive and that's always the slant of these pop science articles. I could spend a bunch of time googling but .....nahhh.



SammichEater
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06 Jul 2011, 4:40 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Bwhahaha ...

Science is proving you wrong. Now I wish I had preserved the references.

Acting happy when your not actually happy changes your mental state and you become more genuinely happy. And furthermore, people respond more positively to a happier person and this response will cause people to do things differently. So acting happy DOES cause happy things to happen.

But I'm betting this doesn't make you very happy.


It's a placebo. I don't know about you, but if I'm not happy, then I don't want to be. Being told to just be happy when I'm not makes me want to stab someone. I'm not going to fake it just because that's what people expect of me. That's bull crap.


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wavefreak58
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06 Jul 2011, 4:44 pm

Janissy wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
[Science is proving you wrong. Now I wish I had preserved the references.

.


Indeed. I'd read this in the pop science magazines "Discover" and Psychology Today" which give the researchers' names and where you can find the research but don't publish the research itself. It seems counter-intuitive and that's always the slant of these pop science articles. I could spend a bunch of time googling but .....nahhh.


I may have heard this on NPR. Usually they vet their sources a little better than the random U Tube video.

It also had something to do with mirror neurons. When you appear happy, my mirror neurons mimic that and it actually lights up the "happy" brain pathways and makes me feel happy. So you faking happy makes me feel happy and you respond with your own mirror neurons. One big happy circle.

Clearly this doesn't work like this universally through all the complexities of real life. It is just part of how we react to our environment.

All very interesting stuff.

Of course autism interferes with the whole mimic/mirror neuron thing. Sucks to be we.


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06 Jul 2011, 5:13 pm

I used to have terrible depression, and people told me that. It hurt so much more pretending to be happy. I was never very good at it, and it felt like I, too, was rejecting my own emotions. I find the only way to be truly happy now is to be okay with being sad. Emotions come and go... fretting over them, making some 'bad' and some 'good' is missing that emotions are just the clouds crossing the sun of who we are (i.e. they don't change us).



zer0netgain
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07 Jul 2011, 7:51 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well my chronic depression kind of takes that choice away from me....even if things are good I can feel like crap, unless I medictate myself or happen to be having an especially good day and naturally feeling mildly content. but I have accepted it and do not feel sorry for myself because I have depression......I mean it was genetics and environment......it was not god(who I used to belive in) punishing me so I cannot have the 'why me' response anymore.


True.

Sadly, so many think medication to be "happy" is an answer, but just as someone with a chemical imbalance is always depressed without meds, using meds for a normal person to feel "happy" is not really being happy but inducing a false sense of euphoria.



johnsmcjohn
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07 Jul 2011, 9:23 am

Jediscraps wrote:
Here's my issue with this.

Happiness = the truth

I say happiness is the truth, because the prevailing attitude is to change your thoughts, to make you happy.

This feeling of being happy is therefore paramount and of higher value which your thoughts should be built around.

If you are unhappy, anxious, depressed, in other words negative kind of a feeling, something is wrong with your own thoughts.

But, what if negative feelings are telling you something about your environment.

A wife who is treated badly in a relationship may be having negative feelings. The professional may say that she doesn't have to put up with such treatment and may leave or fix it if possible. In this sort of situation it is seen as the environment/situation as a significant affect on her mood and it would help to change that environment. She may also have thoughts which are irrational or inaccurate which may cause problems as well though.

Now expand this to the societal level and how each person survives and lives their life in their social and economic environment and particular situations.

What if people have negative feelings because of their environment, even the structure of their society and it's values? What if these people are then told to change their thoughts about it to become happy (positive feelings)?

Couldn't this idea of seeing positive feelings as the truth to gear your thoughts and feelings around be a way for people to adapt to a situation that their own self finds ill fitting (for whatever reason)?

You can't escape this environment because it is everywhere almost like air, it is the atmosphere.

I see this as man being built for the institution, the structure, the economy, the environment, instead of having these things built for man.

I would prefer genuine happiness. I would be more genuinely happier if the environment was built around higher values.

I've thought a lot about these things for a long time. I've taken a long time to explain these things to a counselor and he's working with me on this.



I disagree. The vast majority of the time I am not unhappy, I'm simply not happy. Think of a graph. Emotion on y and time on x. I would resemble an elongated sine wave. I can be happy, I can be unhappy. But most of the time I'm neither happy nor unhappy and what I can't understand is why NT's can't seem to grasp that. They seem to believe unless you're some smiling clown that somehow you're broken and need fixing.



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07 Jul 2011, 10:48 am

Gwenwyn wrote:
I used to have terrible depression, and people told me that. It hurt so much more pretending to be happy. I was never very good at it, and it felt like I, too, was rejecting my own emotions. I find the only way to be truly happy now is to be okay with being sad. Emotions come and go... fretting over them, making some 'bad' and some 'good' is missing that emotions are just the clouds crossing the sun of who we are (i.e. they don't change us).

This is a pretty healthy response! I have found that if I wait it out, bad moods pass. They don't define me. Yesterday I found myself crying several times. I simply allowed this, and today I am better. What if I had gone to a shrink and asked to be medicated against a passing mood? :?


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