Asperger's and Lack of Feeling/Morals?

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Poke
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29 Jul 2011, 6:38 am

B-randon wrote:
Aspies seem to be often represented as sweet but socially clueless individuals who have strong morals, even if they are bit off-color.


This is what I call the "rose-colored archetype" of Asperger's. Please be aware that this website is basically COMMAND CENTRAL for the propagation of that archetype, and that it's no mistake that many of the replies to your original post insist that what you describe is not Asperger's, but something "worse" like ASPD, BPD, etc.

You have to understand why the rose-colored archetype (which roughly correlates with schizoid/schizotypal personality disorders, AKA the least socially problematic or "bad" ones) exists. Think about how parents are often encouraged to broach the topic of Asperger's with their newly diagnosed child...there's always something about how Einstein, etc. had Asperger's--in other words, putting whatever positive spin is possible on a situation that is, in the vast majority of cases, utterly devastating. The same thing is happening with the rose-colored archetype. Is it merely a coincidence that, despite the extraordinary diversity among individuals with Asperger's, almost every description like the one you gave is rejected for not fitting an extremely specific profile? As if there were a long list of things, like stealing from your mother's purse, giving a speech, committing a murder, etc. which are utterly incompatible with a diagnosis of Asperger's, or absolutely not a product of Asperger's. Well, your description of him screams ASPERGER'S!! ! in virtually every respect but you mentioned that she's cut herself a few times...[big red Family Feud "X" and buzzer sound] Nope, that's BPD!

It's like...are you kidding? This girl's corpus callosum never formed properly (or whatever), and that DOESN'T have anything to do with the downward spiral her life has developed into? She just happened to not have a corpus callosum AND develop what looks like ASPD--yeah, I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Like having red hair and freckles.

Such analysis betrays poor understanding of what Asperger's, autism in general, and personality disorders really are. For a quick primer, please see this thread: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt156230.html

Best wishes for you and your daughter.



Last edited by Poke on 29 Jul 2011, 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Luci
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29 Jul 2011, 6:46 am

Poke wrote:
Well, your description of him screams ASPERGER'S!! ! in virtually every respect


Can you explain? I did not see it but I am far from an expert in the matter. You could be right, of course. You could also be wrong. How am I to know.

Poke wrote:
Such analysis betrays poor understanding of what Asperger's, autism in general, and personality disorders really are. For a quick primer, please see this thread: http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums-posti ... 78469.html


That's not the right link, I think. That's a link to quoting the original post of this thread.



Poke
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29 Jul 2011, 6:51 am

Luci wrote:
Poke wrote:
Well, your description of him screams ASPERGER'S!! ! in virtually every respect


Can you explain? I did not see it but I am far from an expert in the matter. You could be right, of course. You could also be wrong. How am I to know.


I wasn't referring to the person described by the original poster specifically...at that point it's just kind of a general rant. I only scanned the original post.

Quote:
That's not the right link, I think. That's a link to quoting the original post of this thread.


Oops...fixed.



Ettina
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29 Jul 2011, 8:18 am

Quote:
It's like...are you kidding? This girl's corpus callosum never formed properly (or whatever), and that DOESN'T have anything to do with the downward spiral her life has developed into? She just happened to not have a corpus callosum AND develop what looks like ASPD--yeah, I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Like having red hair and freckles.


Yes, it is. Lack of corpus callosum usually has absolutely no effect. When it does cause difficulties, they're learning disabilities involving coordinating both sides of the brain. I've heard people claim that impulsivity comes from one side of the brain and self-control from the other side, but that's completely bogus. Instead, self-control is related to both the left and right side of the frontal lobes. (And besides, lack of self-control is not the same as antisocial behavior - you have to have the impulse to act on it.)

I can suggest a few possibilities for what the OP's daughter might have:

* AS and psychopathy - see this link

* the type of AS described in Digby Tantam's article - this article is fairly controversial, but I suspect he could be describing a distinct subtype

* AS and borderline personality - see this link

* Pathological demand avoidance - this subtype, if poorly managed in childhood, often results in antisocial behavior in adolescence



Poke
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29 Jul 2011, 8:24 am

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
It's like...are you kidding? This girl's corpus callosum never formed properly (or whatever), and that DOESN'T have anything to do with the downward spiral her life has developed into? She just happened to not have a corpus callosum AND develop what looks like ASPD--yeah, I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Like having red hair and freckles.


Yes, it is. Lack of corpus callosum usually has absolutely no effect.


Hopefully you just didn't word that very well or something, because as it stands, it's pure BS.



trappedinhell
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29 Jul 2011, 9:33 am

B-randon wrote:
A significant problem is with boys and men. My daughter has little to no social life because of her social awkwardness and also because of a lack of interest, but she is extremely pretty, tall and thin and a sharp dresser and goes through boyfriends, many much too old for her, with alarming frequency.


I am no expert, but this alone might be a big part of it. Lacking social awareness plus being attractive is a dangerous combination in a teenage girl.

On moral sensitivity...

The men she sees will say whatever she wants to hear. She lacks the skills to see through their lies. So to her they are innocent. She may be very moral, just naive. Meanwhile, she lacks the skills to see that her parents have good reasons for their rules. So to her, she is moral, her boyfriends are moral, but her parents are perverse.

On moral authority

The alpha male principle may be relevant here. Most girls are programmed to follow "strong" men, just as most men are programmed to follow "beautiful" girls. men work very hard to appear strong. If she moral but naive, she may equate morality with authority, and authority with strength. If a powerful man says "this is perfectly innocent" she may sincerely believe him.

It is possible she is still very moral, but just way, way out of her depth.



YourMother
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29 Jul 2011, 10:07 am

cyberdad wrote:
I don't wish to be a rude but you say your daughter is 16, how long has she been dating older men? are you aware you are allowing your daughter to associate with men who are probably paedophiles.


Have you ever seen a 16yo girl? Really? Paedophiles I think not. People need to stop this stupidity.



nemorosa
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29 Jul 2011, 10:27 am

YourMother wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't wish to be a rude but you say your daughter is 16, how long has she been dating older men? are you aware you are allowing your daughter to associate with men who are probably paedophiles.


Have you ever seen a 16yo girl? Really? Paedophiles I think not. People need to stop this stupidity.


I'm more concerned about the mother talking about the "gorgeous Puerto Rican kid" 8O :lol:

Presumably he was round about her daughters age so...



guywithAS
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29 Jul 2011, 11:05 am

she absolutely doesn't fit aspergers / autism. we're not capable of lying like that. its binary.

if she has similar traits, you should look at disorders similar - she should be professionally diagnosed.



syrella
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29 Jul 2011, 11:23 am

This doesn't sound much like Asperger's to me. If anything, it sounds closer to sociopathic behavior, which is essentially Antisocial Personality Disorder.

I'd take her in to get her evaluated again.


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cyberdad
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29 Jul 2011, 5:16 pm

YourMother wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I don't wish to be a rude but you say your daughter is 16, how long has she been dating older men? are you aware you are allowing your daughter to associate with men who are probably paedophiles.


Have you ever seen a 16yo girl? Really? Paedophiles I think not. People need to stop this stupidity.


Sorry in Australia that's the law.



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29 Jul 2011, 6:05 pm

B-randon wrote:
I am the mother of a 16 year old girl who was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome two years ago. In many ways hyperlexia (a division of Aspergers', for those who are unaware) read like a description of her exactly.

However, in my research and experience there is one thing in particular that unnerves me.

Aspies seem to be often represented as sweet but socially clueless individuals who have strong morals, even if they are bit off-color. I have raised my daughter in a devoutly Catholic home, and aside from some divorce and brief instability in her childhood, she has been taught strong faith and morals. However, she seems to be missing something, a conscience? Something human. For one thing, she lies frequently and cheats and steals without remorse or limit. Her dishonesty is frightening and does not discriminate when it comes to even close friends and family. It seems she's doing this a little bit less as she gets older, but I suspect she's just getting better at not getting caught. She's seemingly incapable of leaving the house and actually going where she says she'll be. She shoplifts ridiculously and is never caught; over the past three years I'm certain she's stolen over a thousand dollars worth of cosmetics, books, food, clothing and other trinkets. She lies to such an extent that sometimes I've read her journal and found made-up stories in there -- it's as if she lies to herself.

A significant problem is with boys and men. My daughter has little to no social life because of her social awkwardness and also because of a lack of interest, but she is extremely pretty, tall and thin and a sharp dresser and goes through boyfriends, many much too old for her, with alarming frequency. She doesn't seem to care or have any interest in them aside from things that they can provide her with, such as money (she targets rich older men); and they always get over their initial infatuation and scram fast when they realize how "weird" she is.

Though she doesn't have much of an interest in the opposite sex, there is one serious problem. It occurred first when she was 13, and she developed what we thought was her first "crush", and we were honestly a bit relieved. However, she didn't go to school with the boy who lived in our neighborhood and didn't know how to approach him appropriately. Without my knowledge, she invented this insane story about being part of a secret government organization and took it so far with threats and craziness over the span of several months that the boy's parents ended up calling the police on her. At 16, the awful "crush" struck again, and she developed an obsession with this gorgeous Puerto Rican kid from her new high school. Through manipulation and sneakiness she was able to secure him as her boyfriend, but I was disconcerted by the way she referred to him in her journal as "the Object" and "it" and not a human being. This kid was a happy, healthy, normal popular kid and dumped her after about a month, as usual. My daughter could not accept this and started calling/texting him dozens of times a day. She spread vicious rumors about him and slapped him in the face in public. She went to his employer and claimed he had sexually harassed her, getting him fired; discreetly ruined his car; planted hallucinogens in his car before anonymously tipping off his college (we're not sure yet whether he'll be expelled and facing charges); poisoned and killed his new litter of shih tzu puppies; stole and destroyed his iPod and phone (that's a lot of damages on top of ruining his car!!); and finally broke into his house one night after purchasing a tarantula and giant scorpion for $15 each from the local pet store and released them on his pillow with a note reading "Hell Hath No Fury Like the Woman Scorned." In an e-mail to a very unhealthy friend, she made it clear that she had planned in detail many ways in which she could murder him and was confident she could get away with it, but wouldn't do so so as not to jeopardize her future.

Last year we sent her to boarding school with excellent security and she managed to run away. True to form, she was found two days later at the public library immersed in stacks of books. We think her time there was beneficial but I'm still worried since she's still doing these crazy things.

My daughter is extremely intelligent. She taught herself to read at three without my knowledge; I bought her a learn-to-read book to get a headstart on kindergarten, and when I went to teach her the alphabet she astounded us by clearly reading aloud all the words in the book. I send her to retreats and religious events, and I've had deeply intelligent adults tell me they've never met someone who could dig so theologically deep and profound, especially not at her age. She devours books of all types.

Extreme beauty and extreme brains, but there are so many dark sides. Despite her power to be intensely collected and calculating, there are times when I can't even speak to her because she explodes in temper tantrums and literally sounds like a 2-year-old, and you literally have to talk to her like she is one. She cries hysterically and pounds her head against the wall over the smallest things; completely irrational. She's obsessed with looking perfect and has that distinctly Aspergian(?) fixation with lists and schedules and rules; she can spend entire days studying complicated recipes for what type of clothing looks best with her body type and colors with skin tone and subconscious messages and such, she follows extreme beauty regimens that are planned with detail down to the minute they must be performed and precisely how many squirts of what should be used, etc. She's obsessed with the "perfect" body measurements and is never without her measuring tape to ensure that her waist doesn't expand past the specifications and the hourglass is maintained. God help you if something goes out of balance -- it's the end of the world. She has so many rules about what she has to do at what times, every day is intensely structured to the point that if we leave 10 minutes later than expected she pouts like a baby and acts ridiculous.

She has caused me so much stress that it is nearly unbelievable, on top of two older siblings with their own slew of issues. I'm worried also because she'll be eighteen soon and has proved to have very poor judgement. I'm afraid to know what she'll do with the independence she wants so badly.

This is all very stressful for me. I was wondering if anyone else experiences these types of symptoms/behaviours with their children.


I have an autistic spectrum disorder and lying doesn't come easy to me. It took me years before I realized that some people are able to ly without blinking an eye. Stealing is also a bit uncommon among aspergers because a lot of people with aspergers do have strong morals and are usually quite rigid about their own morals, rules and ideas.

Maybe you should get a second opinion about your daughters diagnosis.
Your daughter obviously doesn't feel good in her own skin and she's probably very insecure about her appearance. Maybe she has aspergers combined with another problem like ADHD or something, or it might be something completely different altogether like an obsessive compulsive disorder . It's probably for the best if she gets some professional help because dealing with that all by yourself or as a family might prove to be a bit too much.