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CockneyRebel
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30 Nov 2011, 12:41 am

dobrolvr wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I wouldn't wear one because Autism Speaks uses that symbol and I don't support Autism Speaks. I'm not a puzzle that needs to be figured out and put together, I'm a free range Aspie.


Yes, that's what a lot of individuals were saying in the information I came across. Do you not support Autism Speaks because they are trying to cure Autism and you don't think it needs to be cured? That's a lot of what they were saying too. I apologize if I'm coming across as ignorant, I'm just new to all of this and I've kind of become obsessed with everything there is to know about it. Thanks for your input!


That's exactly the reason that Autism Speaks is in my bad books. That and that stupid video called Autism Everyday and especially the part where that mother is changing her 5 year old son's diaper as if incontinence is the worse thing in the world.

The link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDMMwG7RrFQ


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30 Nov 2011, 4:45 am

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't like autism speaks because it seems like they are more focused on preventing any further cases of autism, and curing people with it wether they want to be cured or not......

I think when someone claims that they worry of someone being cured whether they like it or not, they're considering that they don't want to put up with others getting cured who could benefit from cure due to being lower functioning. They don't want others to become fortunate like they already are, or to have to compete with them.

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then supporting individuals with autism or trying to raise awareness in society so people realise its not always 'bad' to be different.

Disability is not a neutral difference.


Uhh I was thinking more like, society can sometimes cause more problems than the disorder itself.....I would not really veiw myself as that terribly fortunate I mean I'm dropping out of college and have no garantee of finding a job or getting on disability(yes in order for me to get on medicaid I have to be on disability unless I'm over 65). I live in a society I dislike and don't fit into and would really like to change it but have no clue where to even begin and there is a lot more stress in my life other than that as well but I wont get into it all here.

and I think people should have their lives improved I just think they should have some say in how.....if someone wants a cure and there is one go for it, but not everyone is going to want such a thing. And I am not all that competitive at all, I prefer doing what I can to help people.

and I never really said it was a neutral difference.......I mean in my case I think there are some positive aspects of the way mind works and I would be worried a cure would not only get rid of the negative symptoms but also the good aspects. I also feel like sometimes society should re-adjust itself to fit the needs of the people it should not always be up to those who are different, disabled or both to try to adjust themselves to the society.


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30 Nov 2011, 6:05 pm

MrXxx wrote:

That's quite a lot of reading more into the statement than what the statement says. How do you get from "I don't like the idea of curing people whether they want it or not" to "I don't want others to be fortunate because I may have to compete with them." ? That's quite a leap. I think you are reading an awful lot between the lines.

BTW, I don't subscribe to Sweetleaf's position, but I do think you're assuming an awful lot.

I know the way these kinds of characters talk. I've seen it all before. And they usually can't be reasoned with. Considering that along with their self-glorification based on their own high abilities, and their ignoring of the problems of those with significant impairments, who may want cure, that's the conclusion I come to.

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dalurker wrote:
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then supporting individuals with autism or trying to raise awareness in society so people realise its not always 'bad' to be different.

Disability is not a neutral difference.


No, it isn't, but what does that have to do with the quote? Are you saying we should not raise awareness that being different is not necessarily bad, because Autism is actually bad?


Mentioning "difference" when disability is the subject, is a tactic to loosen others' perception that disability is unfortunate, by pretending disability is just another difference.



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30 Nov 2011, 6:11 pm

Ganondox wrote:
That's absurd! The post in no way implies that. I do not want a cure for autism as it will be forced upon people, but I would like for there to be a way to increase the functioning of people with Autism, particullary LFA, as its not fair that they should suffer from Autism in ways that the higher functiong people do not.


What's the difference between cure and increasing functioning?



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30 Nov 2011, 6:15 pm

dalurker wrote:
MrXxx wrote:

That's quite a lot of reading more into the statement than what the statement says. How do you get from "I don't like the idea of curing people whether they want it or not" to "I don't want others to be fortunate because I may have to compete with them." ? That's quite a leap. I think you are reading an awful lot between the lines.

BTW, I don't subscribe to Sweetleaf's position, but I do think you're assuming an awful lot.

I know the way these kinds of characters talk. I've seen it all before. And they usually can't be reasoned with. Considering that along with their self-glorification based on their own high abilities, and their ignoring of the problems of those with significant impairments, who may want cure, that's the conclusion I come to.


Uhh hey, before you keep making assumptions about me.......maybe you should read my response to that post of yours as well.

And what are you talking about? I am really not the sort of person who glorifies myself.......I have lots of flaws, in fact because I am depressed I usually think I have more flaws then positive traits. And what high abilities are you referring to? all I really said is there are some things I enjoy about they way my brain is wired....

Also I've had my problems ignored by others for a large majority of my life and know how it feels, and being I like to treat others how I want to be treated I do my best not to ignore peoples problems.......I have no issue with people who want a cure having access to it, if they ever even can create one I just don't want the cure for myself is all.


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30 Nov 2011, 6:29 pm

Tuttle wrote:
I am someone who would worry about people being cured whether they want it or not. I'm also explicitly someone who states that I'm not against a "cure" existing, and people taking it if they choose to. I think each individual should be able to make that decision without there being any additional pressure to take the "cure". If the person who doesn't want the "cure" is non-verbal or the person who wants it is one of the most "high functioning" cases, I think that both sides must be respected. It's not about functioning level, its about individuals and individuals being allowed to make such drastic decisions as that for themselves. We're not just disabilities we are people. I am not a case study for Asperger's Syndrome, I'm autistic.

As for disability not being neutral, yes, but I don't care that its not neutral, making me not be me would be far more damaging than autism is.


What evidence is there that someone is going to be forced? When was my consent ever requested regarding whether I wanted to put up with being disabled or not? It doesn't make sense for functioning level not to influence that decision, as cure is to increase functioning. I don't know what cure would even mean for someone very high-functioning, as they already have lots of ability. This doesn't have anything to do with making you not be you.



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30 Nov 2011, 6:55 pm

dalurker wrote:
Tuttle wrote:
I am someone who would worry about people being cured whether they want it or not. I'm also explicitly someone who states that I'm not against a "cure" existing, and people taking it if they choose to. I think each individual should be able to make that decision without there being any additional pressure to take the "cure". If the person who doesn't want the "cure" is non-verbal or the person who wants it is one of the most "high functioning" cases, I think that both sides must be respected. It's not about functioning level, its about individuals and individuals being allowed to make such drastic decisions as that for themselves. We're not just disabilities we are people. I am not a case study for Asperger's Syndrome, I'm autistic.

As for disability not being neutral, yes, but I don't care that its not neutral, making me not be me would be far more damaging than autism is.


What evidence is there that someone is going to be forced? When was my consent ever requested regarding whether I wanted to put up with being disabled or not? It doesn't make sense for functioning level not to influence that decision, as cure is to increase functioning. I don't know what cure would even mean for someone very high-functioning, as they already have lots of ability. This doesn't have anything to do with making you not be you.


What evidence is there that any of those nasty assumptions you made about me are true? not sure if you're trying to ignore all my responses or not(maybe you just haven't gotten to it yet) but If you're going to make those sort of assumptions at least have the decency to read my rebuttal.


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30 Nov 2011, 6:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Uhh I was thinking more like, society can sometimes cause more problems than the disorder itself.....I would not really veiw myself as that terribly fortunate I mean I'm dropping out of college and have no garantee of finding a job or getting on disability(yes in order for me to get on medicaid I have to be on disability unless I'm over 65). I live in a society I dislike and don't fit into and would really like to change it but have no clue where to even begin and there is a lot more stress in my life other than that as well but I wont get into it all here.

and I think people should have their lives improved I just think they should have some say in how.....if someone wants a cure and there is one go for it, but not everyone is going to want such a thing. And I am not all that competitive at all, I prefer doing what I can to help people.

Who wouldn't want one if they need it? How can lives truly improve when there are impairments in basic skills?

Quote:
and I never really said it was a neutral difference.......I mean in my case I think there are some positive aspects of the way mind works and I would be worried a cure would not only get rid of the negative symptoms but also the good aspects.

Why would the benefits go away, if there are already high-functioning individuals out there who have those benefits and already are rid of the negative symptoms? If such a state already exists for such persons, curative therapies don't have to rid benefits to get rid of negative symptoms. Getting rid of negative symptoms is basically just increasing benefit anyway. Besides, those on the spectrum aren't dealing with both the benefits and the negative symptoms individually. The benefits, which are the high aptitude, are concentrated among the higher functioning, and the impairments are concentrated among the lower functioning. It's not fair. Those who are high functioning don't really need a cure. When I hear complaint of someone being cured whether they like it or not, I think that the ones with the benefits should have to share their aptitudes with those who lack those abilities to begin with, whether they like it or not.

Quote:
I also feel like sometimes society should re-adjust itself to fit the needs of the people it should not always be up to those who are different, disabled or both to try to adjust themselves to the society.


Basic abilities are fundamental needs of all in society. Abilities shouldn't be a privilege for only some within society.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:03 pm

ictus75 wrote:
Hmmm, I don't get that at all. The main problem for me about Autism Speaks is that they present themselves as speaking for all Autistics, yet it is mainly a group made up of NTs. So they talk about cures and such, yet have not bothered to ask any of us what we think! So for you to say "They don't want others to become fortunate like they already are, or to have to compete with them" is a load of BS. I would love to see everyone on the Spectrum healthy, happy, and productive. But, I don't want others to define what that is for me, especially when they are NTs. Who is to say what's "normal" anyway. Maybe Autistics are normal, and NTs are not…


Putting normal in quotation marks is getting kind of old. If you want all to be happy and productive, why do you keep demonizing cure? It isn't difficult to define what productive is.



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30 Nov 2011, 7:14 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Uhh I was thinking more like, society can sometimes cause more problems than the disorder itself.....I would not really veiw myself as that terribly fortunate I mean I'm dropping out of college and have no garantee of finding a job or getting on disability(yes in order for me to get on medicaid I have to be on disability unless I'm over 65). I live in a society I dislike and don't fit into and would really like to change it but have no clue where to even begin and there is a lot more stress in my life other than that as well but I wont get into it all here.

and I think people should have their lives improved I just think they should have some say in how.....if someone wants a cure and there is one go for it, but not everyone is going to want such a thing. And I am not all that competitive at all, I prefer doing what I can to help people.

Who wouldn't want one if they need it? How can lives truly improve when there are impairments in basic skills?

Quote:
and I never really said it was a neutral difference.......I mean in my case I think there are some positive aspects of the way mind works and I would be worried a cure would not only get rid of the negative symptoms but also the good aspects.

Why would the benefits go away, if there are already high-functioning individuals out there who have those benefits and already are rid of the negative symptoms? If such a state already exists for such persons, curative therapies don't have to rid benefits to get rid of negative symptoms. Getting rid of negative symptoms is basically just increasing benefit anyway. Besides, those on the spectrum aren't dealing with both the benefits and the negative symptoms individually. The benefits, which are the high aptitude, are concentrated among the higher functioning, and the impairments are concentrated among the lower functioning. It's not fair. Those who are high functioning don't really need a cure. When I hear complaint of someone being cured whether they like it or not, I think that the ones with the benefits should have to share their aptitudes with those who lack those abilities to begin with, whether they like it or not.

Quote:
I also feel like sometimes society should re-adjust itself to fit the needs of the people it should not always be up to those who are different, disabled or both to try to adjust themselves to the society.


Basic abilities are fundamental needs of all in society. Abilities shouldn't be a privilege for only some within society.


Well quite frankly I would not want a cure if there was one, because I am worried it would also rid me of some of the things I enjoy about myself. Also, in order to cure autism the entire neurological functioning would have to be changed......I am used to my brain as it is, I don't want to have to re-learn how to use my brain........But agian that's just me if other people want a cure cool, I just don't want it.

And I think many people with AS and Autism probably do have quite a few basic abilities.........there are different levels of severity. I was not trying to imply abilities should be a privlege for only those within society. I basically meant though it is important to help people develop basic skills and improve their functioning so they can have an improved life.......its also important there is room in society for difference so people with autism or any other disorders can have a supportive community.


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30 Nov 2011, 7:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
And I think many people with AS and Autism probably do have quite a few basic abilities.........there are different levels of severity.

The disparities in severity are huge for the spectrum, with some having lots of ability, and many others having barely any. I think you know this.

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I was not trying to imply abilities should be a privlege for only those within society. I basically meant though it is important to help people develop basic skills and improve their functioning so they can have an improved life.......its also important there is room in society for difference so people with autism or any other disorders can have a supportive community.

I don't get why you keep going back to "difference".



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30 Nov 2011, 7:42 pm

dalurker wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
And I think many people with AS and Autism probably do have quite a few basic abilities.........there are different levels of severity.

The disparities in severity are huge for the spectrum, with some having lots of ability, and many others having barely any. I think you know this.

Quote:
I was not trying to imply abilities should be a privlege for only those within society. I basically meant though it is important to help people develop basic skills and improve their functioning so they can have an improved life.......its also important there is room in society for difference so people with autism or any other disorders can have a supportive community.

I don't get why you keep going back to "difference".


Because its how I thought to word it I guess.......but to be more clear society should make room for people with mental conditions/disorders/disabilities so they can have supportive communities. Rather than communities were these individuals are expected and constantly pushed to become 'normal'....this is not to say people should not have help increasing their functioning or treatment for unpleasent symptoms but also having some support is very important.


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30 Nov 2011, 8:14 pm

dalurker wrote:
Quote:
and I never really said it was a neutral difference.......I mean in my case I think there are some positive aspects of the way mind works and I would be worried a cure would not only get rid of the negative symptoms but also the good aspects.


Why would the benefits go away, if there are already high-functioning individuals out there who have those benefits and already are rid of the negative symptoms? If such a state already exists for such persons, curative therapies don't have to rid benefits to get rid of negative symptoms. Getting rid of negative symptoms is basically just increasing benefit anyway. Besides, those on the spectrum aren't dealing with both the benefits and the negative symptoms individually. The benefits, which are the high aptitude, are concentrated among the higher functioning, and the impairments are concentrated among the lower functioning. It's not fair. Those who are high functioning don't really need a cure. When I hear complaint of someone being cured whether they like it or not, I think that the ones with the benefits should have to share their aptitudes with those who lack those abilities to begin with, whether they like it or not.


Ok not sure if I quite follow.........I do not want a cure for me, and that is my opinion. If other people would like a cure that is 100%, completely ok with me, even if I am skeptical that they can develop a cure in the first place.


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30 Nov 2011, 8:42 pm

dalurker wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
That's absurd! The post in no way implies that. I do not want a cure for autism as it will be forced upon people, but I would like for there to be a way to increase the functioning of people with Autism, particullary LFA, as its not fair that they should suffer from Autism in ways that the higher functiong people do not.


What's the difference between cure and increasing functioning?


Everything. Just look at the difference between a nonverbal head banger, a typical aspie, and your average person.


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30 Nov 2011, 9:25 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
dobrolvr wrote:
I was looking online at something the other day, and came across a whole slew of information regarding the Autism Awareness Puzzle Piece and how some people don't like it because they hold the stance of neurodiversity. What's your opinion? Is the puzzle piece symbol wrong? Should it, or should it not be worn?


I am confused why would having the stance of neurodiversity make someone dislike that symbol?

I don't think it is nessisarly right or wrong, but I am not quite sure what wearing that symbol would imply exactly, and for neurodiversity I would say Autism and AS are not the only variations from normal neurological functioning so it is a bit ridiculous to refer to anyone who does not have Autism or AS as neurotypical since there are other variations.


I think it's because the puzzle piece implies that a piece of your brain is missing if you're on the spectrum, which suggests you're inferior instead of separate but equal.



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30 Nov 2011, 9:50 pm

DerStadtschutz wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
dobrolvr wrote:
I was looking online at something the other day, and came across a whole slew of information regarding the Autism Awareness Puzzle Piece and how some people don't like it because they hold the stance of neurodiversity. What's your opinion? Is the puzzle piece symbol wrong? Should it, or should it not be worn?


I am confused why would having the stance of neurodiversity make someone dislike that symbol?

I don't think it is nessisarly right or wrong, but I am not quite sure what wearing that symbol would imply exactly, and for neurodiversity I would say Autism and AS are not the only variations from normal neurological functioning so it is a bit ridiculous to refer to anyone who does not have Autism or AS as neurotypical since there are other variations.


I think it's because the puzzle piece implies that a piece of your brain is missing if you're on the spectrum, which suggests you're inferior instead of separate but equal.


Actually, it's because it implies that we are a problem that needs to be solved.


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