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Autism vs. NVLD

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fraac
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10 Mar 2012, 1:51 pm

Ganondox wrote:
By the way I'm great at math and from IQ testing I believe my spatial skills are above average, though I think due to my low PSI my PIQ is significantly lower than my VIQ, does that make me NVLD or definately not NVLD?


Using that many abbreviations is a sign you might want to question who is selling you your reality, and what they gain from it.



Ganondox
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10 Mar 2012, 2:12 pm

fraac wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
By the way I'm great at math and from IQ testing I believe my spatial skills are above average, though I think due to my low PSI my PIQ is significantly lower than my VIQ, does that make me NVLD or definately not NVLD?


Using that many abbreviations is a sign you might want to question who is selling you your reality, and what they gain from it.


Whaaat? The strangest part about what your saying is that I actually think I agree with you.


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11 Mar 2012, 4:46 pm

Antreus wrote:
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"... NLDers have normal emotions but are inept in expressing them and in recognizing them in others, to the extent that they are expressed non-verbally. Aspies, on the other hand, do not feel the same range of emotions. Though they may feel very deeply about many things, they may not cry or smile when it's deemed appropriate. They often have a flat aspect, and have difficulty with initiating or experiencing normal social relationships." [http://www.nldontario.org/articles/NLDvsAS.html]



I don't think I'm understanding this correctly - Don't "feel the same range of emotions?" Some on the spectrum, sure, but not all. Just becase "they may not cry or smile when it's deemed appropriate" doesn't provide support for 'not feeling the same range of emotions as NTs'.

I thought this was well established with the numerous threads on this forum that usually start out as "...I have no emotion?? What!"

But as I say - perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong...



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11 Mar 2012, 5:15 pm

Nikkt wrote:
Antreus wrote:
Quote:
"... NLDers have normal emotions but are inept in expressing them and in recognizing them in others, to the extent that they are expressed non-verbally. Aspies, on the other hand, do not feel the same range of emotions. Though they may feel very deeply about many things, they may not cry or smile when it's deemed appropriate. They often have a flat aspect, and have difficulty with initiating or experiencing normal social relationships." [http://www.nldontario.org/articles/NLDvsAS.html]



I don't think I'm understanding this correctly - Don't "feel the same range of emotions?" Some on the spectrum, sure, but not all. Just becase "they may not cry or smile when it's deemed appropriate" doesn't provide support for 'not feeling the same range of emotions as NTs'.

I thought this was well established with the numerous threads on this forum that usually start out as "...I have no emotion?? What!"

But as I say - perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong...


They are really trying to make autism about not feeling many emotions with this kind of thing.

I do know that's it not like for many Aspies but OTOH I am that way. I have feelings, sure. All of them? I really don't think so.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing but I do think it's a little obnoxious that doctors want this to be a hallmark of autism.


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btbnnyr
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11 Mar 2012, 6:35 pm

So NVLD is lesser ability to process non-verbal social cues and other non-verbal non-social stuff like visual math, with greater ability in verbal skills and thinking about things verbally instead of visually like going over the verbal directions for a lab experiment in your head instead of going over the video that you mentally made from the verbal directions for the same lab experiment? Or if there is a complex diagram in a science textbook, is it easier to learn that information by converting the pictures into verbal descriptions, just as a visual learner might convert the text into mental pictures instead and use the pictures to understand and retain and recall the information, i.e. thinking in pictures? How do people with NVLD do on the Raven's Test?

Autistic people who don't have NVLD have trouble translating non-verbal social cues into states of mind of other people, because they don't share those states of mind themselves, not because they have a problem processing non-verbal information or visualizing things in their heads. The non-verbal non-social processing is often a strength, and many have problems with verbal reception and eggspression instead.

What about the whole RRB block of the DSM criteria? Would someone with NVLD meet 1 of 4 in the DSM-IV or 2 of 4 in the DSM-V?

Do people with NVLD have precocious speech and language development?



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12 Mar 2012, 7:01 am

I'm a strong believer that AS is a form of NVLD. I have both diagnoses.


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12 Mar 2012, 8:55 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I'm a strong believer that AS is a form of NVLD. I have both diagnoses.


And I'm a strong believer against that, if anything it's the converse that is true.


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OddDuckNash99
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12 Mar 2012, 9:34 am

Ganondox wrote:
OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I'm a strong believer that AS is a form of NVLD. I have both diagnoses.


And I'm a strong believer against that, if anything it's the converse that is true.

Show me VALID neuroscientific proof that AS is a form of autism. There is none at this point. Removing AS from the DSM-V is a bad move. From a neuroscientific standpoint, language delay in HFA and normal (often precocious) language development in AS means something about HFA and AS brains are substantially different. And clumsiness and VIQ/PIQ differences add to the debate. Not investigating this further before removing AS as a diagnostic label is a travesty. Nobody will convince me otherwise.


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fraac
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12 Mar 2012, 10:28 am

I can see how language delay and AS language could be on a spectrum. AS language is very unlike nonautistic language despite superficial similarities. To me, AS language learning looks like autistic learning of other things. There are other results showing differences in behaviour but I can't remember them; I know none convinced me that the conditions weren't basically related.

btbnnyr wrote:
Autistic people who don't have NVLD have trouble translating non-verbal social cues into states of mind of other people, because they don't share those states of mind themselves, not because they have a problem processing non-verbal information or visualizing things in their heads.


I don't think this is widely known even among high profile autism researchers. It seems important.



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12 Mar 2012, 11:07 am

i thought NVLD ment problems in learning and understanding non verbal teaching.

im very non-verbal autistic, and never NVLD mentiond to me.


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12 Mar 2012, 11:26 am

I think not all AS have a learning difficulty and vice versa



Tuttle
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12 Mar 2012, 11:55 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I'm a strong believer that AS is a form of NVLD. I have both diagnoses.


So what about all those people who have Asperger's and either have PIQ > VIQ or PIQ ~ VIQ?

Not everyone is the same as you. The fact that you have both, means that both affect you and you're dealing with a dual diagnosis rather than just one of them.



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12 Mar 2012, 12:09 pm

Tuttle wrote:
So what about all those people who have Asperger's and either have PIQ > VIQ or PIQ ~ VIQ? Not everyone is the same as you.

Exactly! The variability in the AS population is the problem. Rather than declaring that AS is HFA or not or NVLD or not, we need to study people with an AS diagnosis more to see if there ARE different subgroups, and if so, how they differ from a neurobiological perspective. Maybe people who are said to have AS who have a higher PIQ really have HFA. Maybe people with my presentation have something completely different that isn't AS at all. But the point is that there is so much left to learn about how similar or different groups on the spectrum are, and it is foolish for the DSM-V to want to remove the AS diagnosis prematurely.


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btbnnyr
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12 Mar 2012, 5:19 pm

fraac wrote:
I can see how language delay and AS language could be on a spectrum. AS language is very unlike nonautistic language despite superficial similarities. To me, AS language learning looks like autistic learning of other things. There are other results showing differences in behaviour but I can't remember them; I know none convinced me that the conditions weren't basically related.


Yes, I don't see why atypical language development in autism cannot vary a lot from abnormally early development of advanced but atypical language to complete lack of speech development. There was a recent study studying eggsacly this, with the conclusion that people diagnosed with AS don't follow NT patterns of language development either. But I saw only the abstract on PubMed, and I don't have the full paper. There have also been papers in the past couple of years showing lack of characteristic IQ profiles in the HFASD population, including those diagnosed with AS.



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12 Mar 2012, 5:32 pm

The idea of using "language delay" as a marker always seemed a bit arbitrary to me, in comparsion to some other, more sophisticated assessment of language development. My guess is that the reason that a delay is used is because parents and doctors are sitting on the edges of their seats, waiting for language to happen at the usual time -- and so when it doesn't it's noticed very strongly.



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12 Mar 2012, 6:05 pm

This abstract is a small study comparing AS performance on some neuropsychological tests to the "NLD model".

Quote:
Asperger syndrome: how does it relate to non-verbal learning disability?
The syndrome of non-verbal learning disabilities (NLD) is associated with prominent non-verbal deficits such as reduced perceptual and spatial abilities, against a background of relatively intact verbal abilities. Asperger syndrome is one of the several developmental disorders for which Byron Rourke has claimed that almost all the signs and symptoms of NLD are present. This study investigated the claim utilizing a battery of neuropsychological tests that were found to be sensitive to NLD in the original learning disordered populations used to describe the syndrome. Children aged between 8 and 14 were recruited to form two groups: (1) children with Asperger syndrome (N=14) and (2) normal healthy schoolchildren (N=20). By contrast to the main principle outlined in the NLD model, children with Asperger syndrome did not display a relative difficulty with spatial- or problem-solving tasks; indeed, they displayed significantly higher performance on some non-verbal tasks in comparison with verbal tasks. It was only in relation to their high levels of psychosocial and interpersonal difficulties, which are also predicted on the basis of their psychiatric diagnosis, that the children with Asperger syndrome were clearly consistent with the NLD model in this study. These results raise questions about the relevance of the syndrome of NLD for children with Asperger syndrome.


I think that AS should be eliminated, and people with NVLD diagnosed with NVLD, and people with autism diagnosed with ASD, for to bester fit support and education to strengths and weaknesses, instead of perpetuating ambiguous AS group of some autism and some NVLD and some whatever else. Having more stringent RRB criteria to distinguish ASD from other disorders causing social problems makes sense to me. In autism, if you have one RRB criterion of special interests, then you are likely to have another of routines and rituals or stereotypy or sensory issues, and even more so in childhood. These things go together, but only if a person is autistic. Otherwise, can have one strongly, especially special interest, or maybe two at low strength with little effect on person's functioning, like in BAP.

Also, autistic person can have NVLD too, or can have ADHD, or can have dyslexia, etc etc etc. But non-autistic people with NVLD should not be diagnosed with ASD.