Why do we have difficulty with abstraction?

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I don't think she does this out of the blue. I recall coming across a lot of discussions on autistic intelligence on this forum, and I think there's a lot more here than you're giving credit for.



Obviously, they do not, or there would be no need to specify fluid intelligence. But the point isn't even necessarily that fluid intelligence presents the most accurate picture of autistic intelligence, but rather that autistic intelligence probably is not the same or measurable in exactly the same ways as neurotypical intelligence. This was noticed as far back as Hans Asperger, who found that if he adminstered IQ tests to his patients, they'd score in a more typical range if he took their communication difficulties into account than if he just administered the tests as he would to neurotypicals.

I have a peculiar question regarding the construction of IQ tests. The only segment where I score extremly high is about solving mathematical equations (I score at others well, too and at others really not). I guess there are different standard IQ tests, I don't know which this one is. Anyway, what kind of intelligence is this segment of the test supposed to measure?

I'm also quiet bad at math and thought of myself as bordering on dyscalculia. In fact there is another segment about adding numbers to a line of numbers which follow a pattern. In this segment I score very very low. So I guess those two segments are not related though they are both belonging to the mathematical area.
I didn't want to make another thread about this but I sense that it could be something linked to concrete and abstract thinking?

It stands to reason that a non-verbal test for intelligence would be a more accurate measure of general intelligence, for someone with severe verbal communication problems, as was the case for some of the individuals with Autism Disorder in her first study.

It is a valuable tool in that respect. The problems with verbal abilities for some of those individuals are evident without IQ testing. The Raven matrices test provides a tool to circumvent that communication barrier to test non-verbal intelligence, as it would with any other individual that had impairments in verbal abilities.

The Weschler test for IQ in this study gave an accurate measure for intelligence in Children with Aspergers, and provided information on the differences in intelligence between the non-aspergers children and the aspergers children, in respect to VIQ and PIQ.

The Raven Matrices test of general intelligence as opposed to the Weschler test of full scale intelligence was not significantly higher for the Aspergers children than it was for the Non-Aspergers children.

She points to the advantage of the Raven matrices test over Performance IQ, for aspergers children, but the Full scale Intelligence Weschler test provides a similiar advantage over the PIQ as well; she doesn't draw attention to it, in the data, results or discussion, but it is clear in the graph.

The Verbal IQ Weschler test actually provides an advantage over the Raven matrices test, although not a significant one.

Fluid intelligence was significantly higher in Aspergers Adults as well as non-Aspergers adults as compared to all measures of the Weschler tests.

The only real significance in regard to Aspergers per this study, for testing with the Raven Matrices test, was that the Aspergers adults had significantly higher scores in the Raven Matrices test in adulthood than the non-Aspergers adults as compared to each groups Weschler results.

So, one could suggest from the results that the Weschler test did not provide a full measure of intelligence for Aspergers adults, and one could suggest the same thing for Non-Aspergers adults included in the study, as well.

That was an interesting finding, because her control group of non-autistic adults in the last study she referenced, had raven matrices scores that were not significantly different from the Weschler full scale intelligence results.

Her findings in regard to the Weschler test further replicated other studies that have shown on average that individuals with aspergers score significantly higher on VIQ as opposed to PIQ, while those with Autism Disorder show the opposite pattern, on average. However the Raven Matrices test was not a requirement in this study for that finding.

This study definitely did not replicate the finding of the preliminary study in Japan. That study provided results that suggested that raw scores for RPM test were significantly higher in asperger children than non-asperger children, and did not study adults at all. The results of this larger study largely refutes the findings of that small study, specific to Aspergers Children.


She suggested in the abstract that the results of this study "provides evidence that strengths in RPM performance span the autistic spectrum and imply a common mechanism advantageously applied to different facets of cognition."

This study highlights the differences in intelligence among individuals with Aspergers and Autism Disorder in every area she tested for intelligence, including the Raven Matrices test.

There was no significant advantage shown here for the children with Aspergers to take the Raven Matrices test, over and above traditional Weschler testing.

And the only advantage for adults was several IQ points over the advantage obtained by their non-aspergers counterparts, by taking the Raven Matrices test.

On the other hand, the results from her previous study were strikingly different, providing evidence that the verbal difficulties in Autism Disorder have a tremendous impact on traditional tests of Full Scale Intelligence.


I doubt any psychologists are going to see the need to test children with Aspergers, with the RPM test, based on the results of this study, or adults with Aspergers. However, the results show a vast difference in the cognitive abilities in Autism Disorder and Aspergers Disorder, which highlight potential biological differences underlying the two disorders.

I'm not sure why she didn't focus more on that finding of difference in the abstract, instead of suggesting a similiar mechanism, in regard to RPM testing across the spectrum.

She also suggests in the abstract that the peaks of verbal intelligence in Aspergers are portrayed as deficits and not reflective of genuine intelligence in this statement from the abstract:

"While different specific strengths characterize different autistic spectrum subgroups, all such peaks of ability have been interpreted as deficits: isolated, aberrant, and irreconcilable with real human intelligence."

That statement does not appear to reflect reality, in regard to Aspergers Syndrome. In fact the stereotype portrayed in the media is often quite the opposite.

That's interesting. I provided a link in a previous post, in this thread, regarding dyscalculia, and the fact that while some have difficulty in arithmetic as you allude to here, that they are gifted in the abstract reasoning required in mathematical equations. Solving mathematical equations, tests both knowledge from the education system and abstract reasoning in IQ tests.

Dyscalculia is associated with many other difficulties in life other than problems with arithmetic or math:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyscalculia

Interestingly too, some of the other symptoms apply to issues associated with Aspergers that have been reported here; even sensitivity to smells and noises.

In reference to Aspergers, clinical issues with concrete thinking are usually associated with language, and the inability to use and understand abstract language. It is not necessarily reflective of an inability for the abstract reasoning required in mathematical equations.

I don't get it.....from my experience, when the common NT walks into a shop, they notice bargains, offers, cheap prices, and all of that, and they notice all the different colours of evertything and spot the thing they want and could be in one shop for ages looking at the different stuff and noticing everything what's around them and only rarely missing out on a bargain or something like that. Often when I'm walking with NTs, they get distracted by things in the shop windows and they stop dead to have a look, and they notice all the little details too. And they've only got to be looking ahead and focusing on one thing what they want to get, and they still seem to spot the bargains and the price changes, and stand there saying, ''oohh, look, 2 for 1 pound!'' or, ''oh, for 85 pence, not bad, eh?'' or, ''look, they reduced their prices on the toothbrushes here'' or, ''oh, look, these were only 1 pound 60 last week, now they're gone upto 2 pound!'' and so on. And I often hear my mum say to her friends or sisters, ''oh I saw a jumper in Marks and Spencers, it was really nice, it was quite short-ish, and it had a checked pattern on it in blue and white, and it was only 9.99. I didn't get it because I didn't have time to try it on but next time I go back in there I will get it.'' And when she does go back, she memorizes exactly what it looks like, and buys it.

But when I walk into a shop, everything just rolls into one. All the clothes hanging up just look all the same to me, and are one big colourful blur, and I never concentrate on any bargains, actually I never even notice them. And I never notice the little details on clothes, and if I did manage to single something out that I like, I can never memorize what it looks like the next time I see it. I tried on some shorts the other day (but didn't get them because they were too big), and all I can remember was they were black and denim. I don't remember what patterns or other colours were on them.

So if Autistics are supposed to be the ones noticing details and getting distracted by things and able to memorize things like that, then how come NTs are generally better at shopping and I'm no good at shopping because I struggle to notice details and bargains etc?
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Yes. This is so dead on.

That is exactly why I have a hard time with abstraction and a major reason for why I struggle so much with faces, social relationships and changes.





Their brain sorts through the information for them and on average, only lets "through" to their mind the things it has deemed important (also based on their priorities and likes) and is sure they are capable to handling. The rest is judged unimportant for the time being and these trivial details only pop up in their thoughts if something unexpected happens (extremely loud abrupt sounds, the clothes rack falling down, someone bumping into them) or if their attention is directed to it by telling them to "look there" or pointing at that something. Then they notice as well.

If you were to ask them about the number of birds they encountered during their shopping tour, they are likely at a loss to reproduce that detail. It would be very unusual for them to be able to reproduce more than a few colours in which the prices (the very prices they remember as digits) were printed and painted.

Yours doesn't seem to do the sorting out in quite the same and lets so much stuff through into your awareness that you're overwhelmed. That's the autism - although the same issue can show in lots of other disorders. Getting overwhelmed happens to normal people too sometimes, of course. Just not as frequently as to someone with a disorder.

It sounds as if you notice too much stuff - also, I can't tell how important shopping is to your subconsciousness and if deep down, you're comfortable and relaxed about the idea of going shopping. Stress such as anxiety, worries about something, dislike for the music playing in a shop influence all people's ability to cope with difficult tasks (difficult tasks can include shopping).

There's something else too. Depending on what your AS is like and what other co-morbids you have, you may encounter more stressors (such as sensory stuff, anxiety, social confusion) than the average person who doesn't have your difficulties and doesn't have to worry about them. So other than noticing more and getting overwhelmed, you might also have it harder dealing with it all depending on your co-morbids and depending on which symptoms you have of AS.

Then there's also yet another thing to consider which is how much "training" you have with shopping. If you have little, you'll naturally run in trouble.

Meaning, how much your focus is used to zoom in on price tags, how quickly you can deduct which one's a good bargain, if you have acquired an intuitive route for how to navigate familiar and unfamiliar shops (most people have that, it's funny), how well your overall ability of keeping to a plan or decision is (what you want to buy even if you don't have an exact idea and don't feel as if you need anything and are just basing your priorities on what you know is missing in your wardrobe), so on... even normal people need that everyday "training" starting in childhood.

That's the good part. Doing a lot of successful shopping makes you better with shopping (if you like it!) little by little.

Last edited by Sora on 15 Mar 2012, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.