How can an executive deficit affect maths?
16 Aug 2012, 3:35 am
Trencher93 wrote:
NateRiver wrote:
Everything mixed up, I gathered the information but I had a hard time organizing it all. I followed the same ideology involved but everything messed up.
I'm not sure there's a specific strategy, but writing things down in steps would help. Knowing keywords helps. Let's take the example:
NateRiver wrote:
If there were 193 episodes, 25 minutes each and I only had 3 weeks and 4 days to watch them all how many would I have to see per day?
Per is the key word here. It means you're going to divide something by something. Here it's "per day", so you'll be dividing by days. This is what I mean by parsing the word problem.
A textbook problem would say "193 episodes OF 25 min each" and "of" is another keyword that means multiply.
Estimation helps you a lot in cases like this. Just say each episode is 30 min, so you could watch about 50 per day. So 200 episodes would take 4 days (non-stop) to watch. You can then get more precise and fill in the numbers. There are 1440 minutes per day, so you could watch 57.6 episodes in a day. That's about 3.4 days to watch all of them, which is reasonably close to the estimate.
I see, it's looking for specific words. Thanks =) But did you see my other post though?
Btw, if anyone can help me.
This is what kinda happens visually
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35816i0&s=6
and an example:
If there were 193 episodes, 25 minutes each and I only had 3 weeks and 4 days to watch them all how many would I have to see per day?
With this problem, instead of doing 193/25
Everything mixed up, I gathered the information but I had a hard time organizing it all. I followed the same ideology involved but everything messed up.
Basically what I'm talking about. With my problem.
Someone please help me what I can do.
~~~~~
If you know anything about this, thank you..
16 Aug 2012, 5:41 am
I used to think that I sucked big time at maths, until I discovered that in fact I was never taught any. What they were teaching at school (or trying to) was arithmetic.
While I would get the answers to sums correct, I would take forever and a day to do so, meaning that I never completed enough quantity of work within a given time, either in class or on a test paper, to get adequate marks. One teacher even asked me about this once, saying that most people who complete so little work get most of it wrong, but I didn't know why this was at the time and couldn't answer. I only realised many years later that it was mostly down to the fact that I couldn't control my attention and spent most of any class daydreaming away in my little bubble, and my doing that screwed up my achievement in some subjects more than others. I was about 14 before I learned to harness my attention a bit better and manage to concentrate on subjects that weren't part of my immediate areas of special interest.
By then, of course, it was too late to catch up on my progress in maths. I'd been dumped right down in Set 7, where the kids didn't even take a C.S.E. in maths, only a general arithmetic paper. It didn't matter that I worked my socks off during the 4th and 5th year of secondary school, I didn't get promoted into a higher maths class, and I didn't get to take a proper maths exam. I could forget the idea of taking A levels in 6th form.
I think had I been exposed to any higher maths, where you get to actually need the ability to visualise, I would have enjoyed and been good at it. Unfortunately, schools work off the principle that if you don't take to arithmetic when you're younger, you don't get put in the higher classes when you get to secondary school where they get to learn more interesting maths topics.
I'm trying to fix this but I really don't know what I don't know. Where do you start if you want to pick up at the point just beyond fractions and decimals and learn the proper stuff?
16 Aug 2012, 1:08 pm
Trencher93 wrote:
[The basic thing is to parse the words, and look for adjectives and nouns that describe quantities, and verbs that describe what to do with the quantities. The key words like "is" (equals), "of" "than" etc (multiply), etc help you make the equation. Then you'll probably recognize a pattern you've seen before and know how to put all this together. Maybe I should write a word problem tutorial?
Actually, what you described isn't what I have problems with when it comes to word problems. I'm very good at word problems where you simply take written language and produce an algebraic equation. I know how to interpret key words like "sum" or "quotient." I whizzed through transforming words into equations in algebra, such as knowing "the sum of x plus five is equal to the product of y and 75" would become x +5 = 75y. The word problems I have trouble with are those found in more advanced math and science classes. Like if you had to find percent yield of a product you made in lab, but you have to figure out the theoretical yield via stoichiometry. This is the type of word problem I meant where you have to figure out values/answers for unknowns that aren't explicitly stated in the problem.
_________________
Helinger: Now, what do you see, John?
Nash: Recognition...
Helinger: Well, try seeing accomplishment!
Nash: Is there a difference?
16 Aug 2012, 5:39 pm
Trencher93 wrote:
Well, executive function deficit has implications for math. What most people mean by "math" is manually performing algorithmic procedures, such as arithmetic calculations (eg the notorious long-division algorithm), algebraic symbol manipulations (eg factoring), calculus (eg taking derivatives) and so on. In most students' experience, only geometry differs substantially from the usual math. Almost all high-school and college level math is doing algorithms by hand, and that's basically using your executive function ability.
To perform math algorithms, you have to remember each step and do it in the right order. You must also work neatly to keep track of what you're doing. You must also be accurate, and actually write down the numbers you intend to write down in the correct order. As you progress, you must remember everything that you've done before when you need it. Calculus is an extreme example, because as you start applying calculus to solve problems, you basically have to be able to recall instantly everything you've ever done in trig, geometry (particularly area and volume), and every algebra technique.
Speed is also an issue. You know the old saying, good fast cheap - pick any two. People with AS could do good work, with neatness and accuracy, but they wouldn't do it fast because of the executive function issues.
All of this is difficult for someone with AS. The more numbers you see on a page, the more jumbled they get in your mind.
I think the main difference between AS and someone who just struggles at math is that someone with AS knows what they need to do, they just can't do it either because of memory issues, executive function issues, or neatness issues. I don't think it's a coincidence that people with AS heavily shaped the computer industry, since we have programs to do artificial handwriting (LaTeX, word processors), math algorithms (calculators), and symbolic manipulation (Maxima). All of these compensate for the executive function issues.
To perform math algorithms, you have to remember each step and do it in the right order. You must also work neatly to keep track of what you're doing. You must also be accurate, and actually write down the numbers you intend to write down in the correct order. As you progress, you must remember everything that you've done before when you need it. Calculus is an extreme example, because as you start applying calculus to solve problems, you basically have to be able to recall instantly everything you've ever done in trig, geometry (particularly area and volume), and every algebra technique.
Speed is also an issue. You know the old saying, good fast cheap - pick any two. People with AS could do good work, with neatness and accuracy, but they wouldn't do it fast because of the executive function issues.
All of this is difficult for someone with AS. The more numbers you see on a page, the more jumbled they get in your mind.
I think the main difference between AS and someone who just struggles at math is that someone with AS knows what they need to do, they just can't do it either because of memory issues, executive function issues, or neatness issues. I don't think it's a coincidence that people with AS heavily shaped the computer industry, since we have programs to do artificial handwriting (LaTeX, word processors), math algorithms (calculators), and symbolic manipulation (Maxima). All of these compensate for the executive function issues.
Following algorithms is not math. I'm good at math, not following algorithms. Algorithms are for computers. This is why describing aspies as human computers is so stupid. Anyway, I agree with this. The secret to being good at math is to learn how to figure out how to solve problems, it takes longer, but you won't get as screwed by executive function.
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
16 Aug 2012, 5:41 pm
Rascal77s wrote:
I still wonder how much of the problems aspies encounter in math is due to the teaching style that is forced on us. I still can't do calculations the way I was taught in school. I think many of us who encounter problems with math would not have a problem if it was taught in a way that is intuitive to us. We're taught to go through unnecessary steps and to sub-vocalize to 'talk through' problems. This is a disaster for those of us who have a visual system of calculating. Trenchers very simple algebra examples... I looked at the word questions and knew the answers, no 'talking it out', no sequential steps as taught in school, just visual. How am I supposed to show my work? Draw a f***ing picture? Yet I'm forced to show these extra steps that I don't use to arrive at an answer. For more complex calculations I do go through steps but still not the steps that I was taught in school. It's like telling a person to run a race and, "oh by the way we're going to strap this ball and chain to your ankle". I'm still going through this crap in college but at least I've had some understanding instructors that have cut me some slack in showing work.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
I agree the way math is taught stinks, but, in my case, it has nothing to do with being more "visual."
I'm not the least bit "visual" and I still struggle. I've found that "math" in school is largely presented as a bunch of memorization, drills, and repetition. I don't "memorize" things very well, and I don't learn squat from repetition.
Trencher described my problems pretty accurately.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
17 Aug 2012, 2:49 pm
Callista wrote:
I was going to answer this, only to discover that Trencher already had.
For what it's worth, I have pretty much every problem Trencher mentions, and I still got up to differential equations (and applications thereof in engineering). I take about twice the time that everyone else takes, I get extended time on tests, I have to write out every little step, so I use lots of paper--but I get it right just as often as the other decent students in my class do. Math is a weakness for me academically, but because I'm a good student overall and have learned ways to compensate, I've grown to love it and use it competently. So if you like math but find it difficult--take heart; there are ways to work with your unusual cognitive style and learn to do math anyway.
For what it's worth, I have pretty much every problem Trencher mentions, and I still got up to differential equations (and applications thereof in engineering). I take about twice the time that everyone else takes, I get extended time on tests, I have to write out every little step, so I use lots of paper--but I get it right just as often as the other decent students in my class do. Math is a weakness for me academically, but because I'm a good student overall and have learned ways to compensate, I've grown to love it and use it competently. So if you like math but find it difficult--take heart; there are ways to work with your unusual cognitive style and learn to do math anyway.
Whats your working memory like?
17 Aug 2012, 3:25 pm
My son took pre-calculus last year in 10th grade. He was allowed extra time on his tests and he wound up with an A for the first semester and a B for the second. He was very lucky he had a teacher who recognized his differential abilities and mentored him. He refuses to write down all the steps and does everything in his head. The teacher was astonished that he could get the right answers without showing any work. There is however a limit to this. The teacher does not believe he is ready for calculus because he has some areas of deficiency due to his techniques. I agree. (I also made it up to differential equations and P-Chem but had a lot of trouble because of executive function.)
27 Sep 2012, 5:00 am
Callista wrote:
I was going to answer this, only to discover that Trencher already had.
For what it's worth, I have pretty much every problem Trencher mentions, and I still got up to differential equations (and applications thereof in engineering). I take about twice the time that everyone else takes, I get extended time on tests, I have to write out every little step, so I use lots of paper--but I get it right just as often as the other decent students in my class do. Math is a weakness for me academically, but because I'm a good student overall and have learned ways to compensate, I've grown to love it and use it competently. So if you like math but find it difficult--take heart; there are ways to work with your unusual cognitive style and learn to do math anyway.
For what it's worth, I have pretty much every problem Trencher mentions, and I still got up to differential equations (and applications thereof in engineering). I take about twice the time that everyone else takes, I get extended time on tests, I have to write out every little step, so I use lots of paper--but I get it right just as often as the other decent students in my class do. Math is a weakness for me academically, but because I'm a good student overall and have learned ways to compensate, I've grown to love it and use it competently. So if you like math but find it difficult--take heart; there are ways to work with your unusual cognitive style and learn to do math anyway.
I always thought you should have all the time you need for any exam unless demonstrating speed was important.
Once in the 1970s when I was doing the labs for one prof's math class, the prof wanted me to proctor the first couple of major exams for him. I had no problem with that and so I picked up the tests and showed up to give them.
After an hour, nobody in the class had finished their exams. Since there wasn't anyone else in the classroom the next hour, I let them keep working. The last exam was turned in after about an hour and forty five minutes.
The prof didn't like that at all. When I picked up the next of his exams, there was an instruction sheet on the front that clearly said that the time limit was strictly one hour. Fortunately for that exam, everyone finished on time.
27 Sep 2012, 5:07 am
Rascal77s wrote:
I still wonder how much of the problems aspies encounter in math is due to the teaching style that is forced on us. I still can't do calculations the way I was taught in school. I think many of us who encounter problems with math would not have a problem if it was taught in a way that is intuitive to us. We're taught to go through unnecessary steps and to sub-vocalize to 'talk through' problems. This is a disaster for those of us who have a visual system of calculating. Trenchers very simple algebra examples... I looked at the word questions and knew the answers, no 'talking it out', no sequential steps as taught in school, just visual. How am I supposed to show my work? Draw a f***ing picture? Yet I'm forced to show these extra steps that I don't use to arrive at an answer. For more complex calculations I do go through steps but still not the steps that I was taught in school. It's like telling a person to run a race and, "oh by the way we're going to strap this ball and chain to your ankle". I'm still going through this crap in college but at least I've had some understanding instructors that have cut me some slack in showing work.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
Not true to all of us.
I do much better with Ritalin.
You have to have prolonged focus, comprehension, and memory. All things I struggle with. I have processing issues too and sensory ones.
I don't find math particularly interesting anyway. I don't use it so it doesn't stay in my head.
_________________
My band photography blog - http://lostthroughthelens.wordpress.com/
My personal blog - http://helptheywantmetosocialise.wordpress.com/
27 Sep 2012, 5:19 am
NateRiver wrote:
If there were 193 episodes, 25 minutes each and I only had 3 weeks and 4 days to watch them all how many would I have to see per day?
With this problem, instead of doing 193/25
Everything mixed up, I gathered the information but I had a hard time organizing it all. I followed the same ideology involved but everything messed up.
With this problem, instead of doing 193/25
Everything mixed up, I gathered the information but I had a hard time organizing it all. I followed the same ideology involved but everything messed up.
When I used to teach introductory college math classes, one one exam or another, I'd include a problem that had more information than was required. It was amazing to many how often that tripped up students.
To many students, the object seemed to be to use all information in the problem whether it was needed or not. Having some information that was unused was like putting a jigsaw puzzle together and having a piece or two left over -- it was really upsetting to some of them.
27 Sep 2012, 2:13 pm
Trencher93 wrote:
I think the main difference between AS and someone who just struggles at math is that someone with AS knows what they need to do, they just can't do it either because of memory issues, executive function issues, or neatness issues.
It's like you've seen into my brain!! Every basic set of sums I try to do, I always forget the beginning of it by the time I've reached the end or I can't remember what it was for to begin with. I have to annotate every single step to tell myself what I did and why and then I end up reading and re-reading these notes over and over again trying to re-grasp the point of the exercise. But then, although I'm no maths genius, I can still manage complex quadratic equations or abstract mathematical problem solving just so long as I have a calculator and someone keeping track of my whats, whys and wherefores. But I'm pretty sure I'm only BAP. I'd assumed this was something that must affect a fair number of NTs too.
_________________
AQ: 32 (up to 37 when answering instinctively); EQ: 21 - 24; SQ: 31
Reading the Mind in the Eyes: 32
RAADS-R: 85
RDOS Aspie score: 115/200; NT score: 79/200
27 Sep 2012, 2:49 pm
pensieve wrote:
Rascal77s wrote:
I still wonder how much of the problems aspies encounter in math is due to the teaching style that is forced on us. I still can't do calculations the way I was taught in school. I think many of us who encounter problems with math would not have a problem if it was taught in a way that is intuitive to us. We're taught to go through unnecessary steps and to sub-vocalize to 'talk through' problems. This is a disaster for those of us who have a visual system of calculating. Trenchers very simple algebra examples... I looked at the word questions and knew the answers, no 'talking it out', no sequential steps as taught in school, just visual. How am I supposed to show my work? Draw a f***ing picture? Yet I'm forced to show these extra steps that I don't use to arrive at an answer. For more complex calculations I do go through steps but still not the steps that I was taught in school. It's like telling a person to run a race and, "oh by the way we're going to strap this ball and chain to your ankle". I'm still going through this crap in college but at least I've had some understanding instructors that have cut me some slack in showing work.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
There are many things that can cause problems for aspies when it comes to math but I think the methods forced on us in school permanently f**** many of us up in math because they conflict with intuition.
Not true to all of us.
I do much better with Ritalin.
You have to have prolonged focus, comprehension, and memory. All things I struggle with. I have processing issues too and sensory ones.
I don't find math particularly interesting anyway. I don't use it so it doesn't stay in my head.
Nothing is true for all of us Pensieve. We're all very different but I have noticed on various forums that what I described is a common problem for people on the spectrum. For the purpose of this thread, I think inability to perform the sequential steps is a consequence of EF problems as Trencher93 suggested on page 1.
Going back to what I was saying in the earlier post... I am currently taking a calculation heavy physics class and getting a C. The class is heavily graded on homework and the format of the homework is very structured. We are required to use preprinted formatted pages to show our work in a specific way. Out of hundreds of problems so I have not produced a single wrong answer but I am marked wrong because I am unable to follow the calculation steps that are required. They just don't happen for me. I'm trying but it's like learning a different language that has completely different rules. Other people in my class who do make errors are getting As and Bs. It seems really weird to me that people are punished for producing the correct result while people are rewarded for conforming to the system but getting the wrong results. But, that's the system. By the time I get out of lecture I've already calculated the homework answers in my head but I'm really considering dropping the class because I can't cope with the formatting.
