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Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS ?.

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onks
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11 Oct 2012, 3:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
GetBusy wrote:
Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS?

If rationality and AS were consistently co-morbid, then this website would not have any need for The Haven or any forum like it.


Hmmm. Do you think so?

I'd think that rationality cannot give you a conclusion about certain things in life.
And rationality would tell you that you are often unfairly/wrongly perceived.
At the same time rationality will tell you that you are "off"/different, and also that you have a right to be as you like.

It would also tell you that moral is not so important for NTs, which is quite depressing...

All the things that are rational from the beginning are just bend into false... if that somehow is possible for NTs
They would not think, which is irrational



again_with_this
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11 Oct 2012, 3:53 pm

onks wrote:
I'd think that rationality cannot give you a conclusion about certain things in life.
And rationality would tell you that you are often unfairly/wrongly perceived.
At the same time rationality will tell you that you are "off"/different, and also that you have a right to be as you like.


Well said.



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11 Oct 2012, 4:30 pm

again_with_this wrote:
GetBusy wrote:
Do I attempt to soften my approach and become less confrontational (blunt). (seriously, I can seemly upset people just by being in the same room and totally unintentionally)


This is a good example of emotion vs. logic. Bluntness, in and of itself, is not actually confrontational, especially if you're intentions are non-confrontational with your bluntness. However, many people "feel" such bluntness is a personal attack. And they "feel" such an attack, that hurts their feelings, warrants aggression. Many will get defencive, shout, even throw a punch all over a misunderstanding.

While you question whether or not you should turn down your bluntness at the risk of others misunderstanding, do the others ever logically question what your true intention was, why they have no right to be so upset, why their personal feelings don't warrant aggression? The answer is no, they don't think in those terms.


I'm finding all of this very helpful. But I know for a fact that my bluntness is not a symptom of my AS. In my youth I was virtually incapable of conducting conversations with strangers, I would generally stutter or block. I can't remember whether the adoption of this bluntness, happened after I came to a rational conclusion that it would help or whether it developed subconsciously as a coping mechanism. To this day the thought of having to go into a bar/club and chat a women up (or strike up a conversation with any stranger in a social situation) makes me extremely anxious/nervous (I'm 51 yrs old !.). This explains why virtually all my girlfriends (partners) have made the first move and driven the conversation. The only exceptions to this is when they/we were both heavily intoxicated.



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11 Oct 2012, 5:00 pm

GetBusy wrote:
I'm finding all of this very helpful. But I know for a fact that my bluntness is not a symptom of my AS.


Disagree. Bluntness and directness, often unintentional, is quite common in adults with Asperger's. Often quiet as children, it's just part of the maturation process. While I can't say if your bluntness is AS-related, I'm not sure you could say "for a fact" that it's not.



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11 Oct 2012, 5:25 pm

again_with_this wrote:
GetBusy wrote:
I'm finding all of this very helpful. But I know for a fact that my bluntness is not a symptom of my AS.


Disagree. Bluntness and directness, often unintentional, is quite common in adults with Asperger's. Often quiet as children, it's just part of the maturation process. While I can't say if your bluntness is AS-related, I'm not sure you could say "for a fact" that it's not.


Wow !.



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11 Oct 2012, 7:02 pm

I can't answer that, because I'm not rational.


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11 Oct 2012, 8:56 pm

I was recently in a discussion with another autistic person. She made multiple appeals to emotion, tried to manipulate my responses by expressing anger and upset at what I was saying, and refused to actually consider or apparently read my arguments because she just "knew" her position was correct, despite the fact that I had facts and statistics on my side.

However, her black and white approach to the discussion was pretty typically autistic.



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11 Oct 2012, 9:57 pm

I also do not think there is particularly any more merit to uber rationality than there is to uber emotionality. The former tends to ignore emotions even though they are a legitimate part of any consideration and should not be ignored.



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11 Oct 2012, 10:21 pm

onks wrote:
Fnord wrote:
GetBusy wrote:
Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS?
If rationality and AS were consistently co-morbid, then this website would not have any need for The Haven or any forum like it.
Hmmm. Do you think so?

Yes, or I would not have stated such.

onks wrote:
I'd think that rationality cannot give you a conclusion about certain things in life.

Agreed. Although rationality is more likely to give you a valid conclusion. Schizophrenics are often irrational, and are just as likely to reach an invalid conclusion. Same for people with PTSD and various depressive disorders.

onks wrote:
And rationality would tell you that you are often unfairly/wrongly perceived.

No ... for that, all you need is an exaggerated sense of entitlement and a "Drama Queen" personality. Check out The Haven and you'll soon see what I mean.

onks wrote:
At the same time rationality will tell you that you are "off"/different...

That's more intuitive than intellectual, but I'll buy into it.

onks wrote:
... and also that you have a right to be as you like.

While people may be endowed by others with the right to be as they like, all too often they lack any reason to be different -- other than the desire to be different.

onks wrote:
It would also tell you that moral is not so important for NTs, which is quite depressing...

Morality is irrelevant, since it is more a topic for religion, which is inherently irrational.

onks wrote:
All the things that are rational from the beginning are just bend into false... if that somehow is possible for NTs.

Does not parse. Please re-state.

onks wrote:
They would not think, which is irrational

Enties think. They simply place different emphasis on certain types of ethical behavior -- just like Buddhists care more for peace and tranquility than Christians.


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11 Oct 2012, 11:14 pm

There's a world of difference between being rational, saying your being rational and attempting to be rational. :lol:

@Verdandi I feel is spot on in bring up black and white thinking. It seems to me like some autistic people latch on a logical system that western civilization calls rational, but are unable to see dogmatically sticking with a system no matter what is irrational. Hence the confusion expressed when other people are "irrational", but they're really just being flexible.

Also, I know that I am very emotionally sensitive and it can help me avoid feeling overwhelmed to take a rational approach, even though I don't really like it. I'm not really able to do it without becoming distant, which is frustrating.

Who knows.



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12 Oct 2012, 12:09 am

People with AS aren't rational, they just can reason.


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12 Oct 2012, 1:01 am

again_with_this wrote:
CyclopsSummers wrote:
Why males? The gals here on Wrong Planet and at the local monthly autism circle I attend, seem to be pretty rational folk.


Generally speaking, the males with AS are more rational, collectively. The AS women may be more rational that NT women, but are more emotional than AS men.

Pay may more attention on this board if you don't believe me.


Naturally you can provide evidence to support that statement and aren't just talking out of your arse.
And of course you've considered how your own biases and experiences may be colouring your perception.
Of course you have, since you're a rational person.


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12 Oct 2012, 1:11 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
again_with_this wrote:
CyclopsSummers wrote:
Why males? The gals here on Wrong Planet and at the local monthly autism circle I attend, seem to be pretty rational folk.


Generally speaking, the males with AS are more rational, collectively. The AS women may be more rational that NT women, but are more emotional than AS men.

Pay may more attention on this board if you don't believe me.


Naturally you can provide evidence to support that statement and aren't just talking out of your arse.
And of course you've considered how your own biases and experiences may be colouring your perception.
Of course you have, since you're a rational person.


I am going to go with "talking out his arse" here. The notion that women are more emotional and men are more logical and rational is simply a typically sexist cultural bias. It's not remotely surprising that an autistic man would try to apply it to autistic women, but it is actually contrary to my own experiences and observations. I would say one of the least emotional posters here (in my observation, I could be wrong) is a woman, and several others tend not to be very emotional either.

The vast majority of us have alexithymia and have difficulty identifying our own emotions, so I am not sure that it's a simple thing to declare that one is truly unemotional. I do not feel a lot of emotions as emotions, but there are times when I am experiencing an emotion and reacting to it, but I do not realize it until I pay attention to what I am saying or doing.



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12 Oct 2012, 2:28 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
Naturally you can provide evidence to support that statement and aren't just talking out of your arse.
And of course you've considered how your own biases and experiences may be colouring your perception.
Of course you have, since you're a rational person.


You could have said: I disagree with this premise and feel you're basing it on a stereotype. Do you have any evidence, or is this just a bias on your part?

Instead, you use phrases like "talking out of your arse."

Yes, in part my opinion is based on personal experience. Nonetheless, it is my opinion and I feel it's accurate. I know it's a sensitive subject for you. I remember you raised hell about it once with a moderator, as gender issues and feelings of perceived misogyny are one of your pet peeves.

I'm not without emotion, and you're not without logic. However, I do believe collectively females with Asperger's are less rationale and more emotional collectively than men with AS. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is. Please don't assume that's meant to be anti-female (again, the emotional reaction, which kind of proves the point.)



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12 Oct 2012, 2:31 am

again_with_this wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
Naturally you can provide evidence to support that statement and aren't just talking out of your arse.
And of course you've considered how your own biases and experiences may be colouring your perception.
Of course you have, since you're a rational person.


You could have said: I disagree with this premise and feel you're basing it on a stereotype. Do you have any evidence, or is this just a bias on your part?

Instead, you use phrases like "talking out of your arse."

Yes, in part my opinion is based on personal experience. Nonetheless, it is my opinion and I feel it's accurate. I know it's a sensitive subject for you. I remember you raised hell about it once with a moderator, as gender issues and feelings of perceived misogyny are one of your pet peeves.

I'm not without emotion, and you're not without logic. However, I do believe collectively females with Asperger's are less rationale and more emotional collectively than men with AS. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is. Please don't assume that's meant to be anti-female (again, the emotional reaction, which kind of proves the point.)


All I said was that I assumed you could provide evidence to support your viewpoint. You're reading a lot into my post that wasn'y actually there.


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12 Oct 2012, 2:38 am

again_with_this wrote:
I'm not without emotion, and you're not without logic. However, I do believe collectively females with Asperger's are less rationale and more emotional collectively than men with AS. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is. Please don't assume that's meant to be anti-female (again, the emotional reaction, which kind of proves the point.)


It is also not supported by any empirical data, simply by your own perceptions which are inherently biased. You may simply be more likely to interpret a woman's response as emotional and a man's response as rational. The more likely reality is that this is simply based in sexist stereotypes about men and women, and the truth is probably much closer to this: That neither men nor women are more likely to be emotional or rational than the other gender.

Also, you make the classic fallacy of placing emotions in opposition to rationality. In fact, quite a large number of emotional reactions are actually fairly rational. For example, when someone has prejudice (misogyny, for example) it is rational for them to object to it. It is irrational to deny that it happened or imply that it didn't really happen (for example, calling it "perceived misogyny").

You also read a lot of emotion into Who_Am_I's response, which I did not perceive as particularly emotional at all. And your response seemed fairly emotional - including personal digs directed at Who_Am_I, specifically her perception of misogyny, as opposed to the probability of actual misogyny.