Dealing with conservative types

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01 Nov 2012, 11:25 am

I don't think you're really talking about conservatives, OP. You're talking about people who are dogmatic and closed-minded, unable to consider other people's opinions. Liberals can be that way, too.

Regarding "most of what happens to people is what they deserve": This is probably a comforting thought for your brother, but it's a fallacy. It probably makes him feel more in control to believe that people who have bad things happen to them have merely gotten what they deserved, because it allows him to think that he can protect himself from bad things, because he doesn't deserve those things. Deep down, it comes from fear. Hopefully he will gain some maturity and reanalyze that, but for now, I advise you to remember that he makes these arguments because he is afraid, and will likely become defensive if you challenge his opinions and thereby "corner" him. I don't know what his issue is, but it seems to be a common one. Maybe the best approach is just to let him think what he likes; you won't be able to change his mind through logic, and a debate is useless if the participants aren't truly trying to understand each others' ideas.

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Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

kx250rider wrote:

My theory in this, is not only about bad things happening, but good things too. I am also a very strong believer in "we become who we associate with". If you hang around with successful, well-disciplined people, you probably will go that way too. If you hang out with lazy people who are angry and feel they're owed something, you will start thinking that way too.

My existence is proof that actions matter, but they do not outweigh random chance. I am lazy and so are my friends. I am also rich. I would love to think its because I'm determined and hard working but it's not. It's because some people are just lucky. Some people are lazy/poor, lazy/successful, motivated/rich, motivated/poor. All of these things happen. You can't disagree.

So if all these things happen, and you still say people can't complain about thier problems, then really what you are saying is that people just shouldn't complain. Which is fair, if you don't like to hear complaining, but it is being selective. Keep in mind that rich, motivated, successful, self made people can also (and do) complain. So, looking at a situation without taking all given
information into account is illogical. This is by definition illogical because there are two outcomes possible. Looking at a problem with all given info or looking at a problem with selective info. The selective info can only produce the same outcome or lesser. It can never produce a better outcome. Some outcomes with low information produce a better outcome due to random chance, but the high information has the same random chance factor so that doesn't matter.

Anyone can win an argument by being selective with information provided. If you disregard the things that don't support your argument. In this case it is lazy rich people and motivated unlucky people.

Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 12:05 pm

Lets just leave opinions out and if anyone disagrees with me, tell me what I have said that is not true. Aside from the different ways we all wish the world would work, just tell me what conservative values are best based on facts and logic.

Keep in mind, you are challenging Michael Jordan to a game of basketball here. I can put some of this conservative policy stuff to sleep for good.

eric76
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01 Nov 2012, 12:49 pm

Brock wrote:

Keep in mind, you are challenging Michael Jordan to a game of basketball here. I can put some of this conservative policy stuff to sleep for good.

If you really believe this, it makes you appear to be highly delusional.

Rascal77s
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01 Nov 2012, 12:56 pm

Jayo wrote:

A tricky one for people with AS - not really people worth arguing with IMO. But dealing with people who have that "conservative" mentality, you know the one, they stake the claim that everyone makes their own destiny and brings everything upon themselves (and btw, they also tend to believe Asperger's is just an excuse

no surprises there.) Note that I don't so much mean conservative socio-religious types, but those who have an exaggerated view of personal responsibility.

An example is my step-brother, who is a real a****ole. He has claimed on a few occasions "did you know that 99% of what happens to you is brought on by yourself??" I guess it never occurred to him that people are in the wrong place at the wrong time, or subject to harassment or bullying, or got bad luck that had nothing to do with their personal actions and more to do with other peoples negligence or intentional infliction of suffering. I asked him that if this is the case, why are there all these laws to protect the majority of people from harm or loss, like discrimination or defamation laws for example. His response was that, well, that's because that person stood out from the crowd.

So I challenged him further and asked him "what if someone gets killed by a drunk driver running a red light??! are you telling me that person 'brought it upon themselves'?" His answer was: "Well, in effect it was, because he could have been more alert and realized that the drunk driver wasn't intending to slow down for the light." So I gave up after that, what's the point. I mean, I could have asked him (hypothetically, because this dialogue was years ago) what about those victims of the two massacres in the Denver, Colorado area - did they bring it upon themselves???! !

Thing is, my stepbrother's not a psychopath (he does have some self doubt and selective empathy! and is not a compulsive liar) but tends to be quite arrogant. All the same, there are times I've secretly wished that some unfortunate event would befall him, short of a total loss, so I could gloat to him that he brought it upon himself and gauge his reaction. Maybe that sounds callous. But sometimes that's what it takes to change a warped attitude like his.

Jayo here is how you deal with it. Punch him in the mouth and tell him he brought it on himself because he didn't know when to STFU.

Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 1:00 pm

eric76 wrote:

Brock wrote:

Keep in mind, you are challenging Michael Jordan to a game of basketball here. I can put some of this conservative policy stuff to sleep for good.

If you really believe this, it makes you appear to be highly delusional.

I am very delusional. But, I know politics.

NolleProsequi
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01 Nov 2012, 1:10 pm

Brock wrote:

I am very delusional. But, I know politics.

Well, if you really knew about conservative politics, you would realise that this thread has very little (if not nothing) to do with conservative politics. I think the OP was referring to people with old-fashioned views, but it bears little relation to current political thinkers in the conservative spectrum.

It seems that the nature of will-power is under discussion, which is a matter for philosophy and psychology and not politics.

Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

NolleProsequi wrote:

Brock wrote:

I am very delusional. But, I know politics.

Total self responsibility is the new school republican idea. Not the old one. Old fashioned republicans were not like Paul Ryan. Who is rather young and a student of Ayn Rand.

NolleProsequi
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01 Nov 2012, 1:37 pm

Brock wrote:

Total self responsibility is the new school republican idea. Not the old one. Old fashioned republicans were not like Paul Ryan. Who is rather young and a student of Ayn Rand.

But I've never heard a conservative thinker go to such lengths to advocate the thoughts: "It's your fault that you were knocked down by a car" or "Those who have been massacred brought it on themselves." Even Ayn Rand and the Objectivists would not go to such inordinate extremes. They would say that "Man exists for his own sake and not others'" but not he is responsible for his own victimhood in cases such as accidents, murder and rape. Who on earth would actually say that except for people with an exaggerated sense of personal responsibility? They wouldn't be mainstream thinkers, which is why I'm bemused that you're talking about "conservative policy". No republican or conservative would dare put such statements (i.e. "It's your fault you were knocked by a car" or "Rape victims bring it on themselves") into a manifesto, or legal writing, or even utter them in the public sphere. That would be political suicide! If they have made similar statements in the past, it's certainly not policy.

The OP said, "I don't so much mean conservative socio-religious types, but those who have an exaggerated view of personal responsibility", which means the people he/she is referring to do not stand in close relation to actual conservatism, hence my thought that "the thread has very little to do with conservative politics."

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01 Nov 2012, 1:41 pm

Rascal77s wrote:

Jayo here is how you deal with it. Punch him in the mouth and tell him he brought it on himself because he didn't know when to STFU.

I love it! You made my day!

Rascal77s
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01 Nov 2012, 1:43 pm

Coastt wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

Jayo here is how you deal with it. Punch him in the mouth and tell him he brought it on himself because he didn't know when to STFU.

I love it! You made my day!

No I didn't, you brought it on yourself.

Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 1:52 pm

NolleProsequi wrote:

No republican or conservative would dare put such statements (i.e. "It's your fault you were knocked by a car" or "Rape victims bring it on themselves") into a manifesto, or legal writing, or even utter them in the public sphere. That would be political suicide! If they have made similar statements in the past, it's certainly not policy.

These are just the first five to come up when I googled the exact quotes.

1. Todd Akin: “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down” - mid 2012 Senate Campaign
2. Clayton Williams: “If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it” - mid 1990 Gubernatorial race in Texas
3. Chuck Winder: “I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that’s part of the counseling that goes on.” - March 2012
4. Ken Buck: “A jury could very well conclude that this is a case of buyer’s remorse … It appears to me … you invited him over… the appearance is of consent.” - October 2010
5. Rick Santorum: “I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you… rape victims should make the best of a bad situation.” - January, 2012

And the manifesto is called the Ryan Budget.

eric76
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01 Nov 2012, 2:03 pm

Brock wrote:

NolleProsequi wrote:

Akin's ignorance does not create a "Conservative policy".

Quote:

2. Clayton Williams: “If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it” - mid 1990 Gubernatorial race in Texas

Nothing there about who's fault it was. Williams was just being an idiot.

Quote:

3. Chuck Winder: “I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that’s part of the counseling that goes on.” - March 2012

I'm not familiar with this quote. In what context was it made. In any event, I don't see that it says anything about fault or responsibility.

Quote:

4. Ken Buck: “A jury could very well conclude that this is a case of buyer’s remorse … It appears to me … you invited him over… the appearance is of consent.” - October 2010

There is nothing at all false about that. Any prosecutor who doesn't consider issues of credibility in bringing rape or other charges, whether they be Democrat, Republican, Socialist, Green, Libertarian, ... would be an awfully inept prosecutor.

Quote:

5. Rick Santorum: “I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you… rape victims should make the best of a bad situation.” - January, 2012

This looks to me to be a religious based view, not a political based view.

Quote:

And the manifesto is called the Ryan Budget.

There is nothing substantial about that statement without a full discussion about what you mean.

So what you have provided is the personal opinions of five Republicans and then jump to the conclusion that those personal opinions are somehow rooted in Conservatism.

Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 2:11 pm

eric76. Serious?

AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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01 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm

Conservatives these days do seem to blame those who are currently poor, seemingly not engaging the discussion that the per capita number of middle-class jobs has been declining since at least 1975, obviously taking a big hit in 2008.

And during the 2012 Republican primaries and before, there has been direct scapegoating of a group of human beings, namely illegal immigrants, who had next to nothing to do with the financial collapse of 2008.

PS I do appreciate what outofplace says on the first page about what I take to be volunteer efforts within one's sphere of influence. But I also favor things like infrastructure spending to increase jobs and, when necessary, taking on big corporations.

Rascal77s
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01 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm

Please do not use "conservative" and "republican" in the same sentence. The republican party has moved so far away from conservative it's unrecognizable.

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