Apies and Lying?
However, there are many exceptions that are apparently not considered "lies." This has often frustrated me. For example, I was once told that "everyone gets married eventually." This statement is clearly untrue and this was known by the speaker. But apparently "everyone" in NT speak often means "many people."
Another example is common in forms and paperwork. Often in medical forms I'm required to summarize my full medical history. Then I'm required to sign a statement that the information is "complete and accurate." Obviously, based on the definition of "complete," a complete medical history would include every doctor's visit, vaccination, prescription, hospital stay, minor illness, etc etc. These are all clearly part of my medical history, and a complete medical history by definition omits no part. Since I can't remember every detail of my history, and the records no longer exist in some cases, it is therefore impossible for me to provide a complete medical history. And yet I must state (legally) that I have done so (on a fairly regular basis as I have frequent interactions with the healthcare system).
Obviously when I sign a statement confirming that I have provided a complete medical history, I'm lying (by any definition above) and am also (by a literal reading) guilty of fraud. However, I've been assured that it's not considered "lying" to sign a statement I know to be untrue. I have yet to hear a rational reason why it's not considered lying, or why such absolute terms as "complete," "everyone," "always," and so on are used in situations where such absolute scope is not realistic. I do know that many literally untrue statements, known to be literally untrue by the speaker, are not generally considered to be lies.
So, "lie" is a strange word with strange applications.
Yeah, I think that generalizations in general(haha) are a form of lying. You cannot say that all Aspies are intelligent and amazing(although a lot of us are). There are always the bad apples out there.
I have always had a difficult time filling out in take forms and medical records. I am not 100% sure what I am allergic too, and i do not want to find out the hard way so i sometimes put "dont know yet" next to items.
I also feel as if I do not have enough information to delegate my family's medical history. I want to be as true and accurate as possible but I do not want to leave anything out so this just drives me insane.
I do sign it but I always feel a little guilty for the reasons you stated as well as the reasons above.
"Lie" is a strange word indeed. I want to gauge the difference between how an aspie might see a "lie" as opposed to an NT.
"Lie" does have a negative connotation, and NTs often pay more attention to the connotation than the denotation. It may be uncomfortable for an NT to describe anything socially acceptable as a lie, since lies are widely perceived to be socially unacceptable. Therefore, nothing socially necessary is labeled a lie (because of the cognitive dissonance that would ensue from considering the same action to be both socially necessary and socially unacceptable).
"Lie" does have a negative connotation, and NTs often pay more attention to the connotation than the denotation. It may be uncomfortable for an NT to describe anything socially acceptable as a lie, since lies are widely perceived to be socially unacceptable. Therefore, nothing socially necessary is labeled a lie (because of the cognitive dissonance that would ensue from considering the same action to be both socially necessary and socially unacceptable).
could you give an example
"Lie" does have a negative connotation, and NTs often pay more attention to the connotation than the denotation. It may be uncomfortable for an NT to describe anything socially acceptable as a lie, since lies are widely perceived to be socially unacceptable. Therefore, nothing socially necessary is labeled a lie (because of the cognitive dissonance that would ensue from considering the same action to be both socially necessary and socially unacceptable).
word.
lies, lies, all lies.
Sure, things like the forms above. Also saying "good" when asked "how are you," saying "no" when asked "does this make me look fat," etc.
haha yeah I see....On a side note, just don't ask me if "this makes me look fat", because I usually end up digging myself into a hole.
I lie for a number of reasons, though all are related to my autism. I'm trying to figure out how to do it less, though in my case the intention is never to deceive the listener for any negative reason.
I also do this a lot, and completely understand the above example because with many "small talk" questions I don't understand what the asker wants to know. For example, if someone asks me "what did you do today?" I have no idea how to answer them - clearly they don't want a second by second account of everything I have done so far that day but I don't know what they DO want, so to avoid my own confusion and potential mistakes I will say "nothing much" even if I have done lots of things. I also sometimes lie because explaining detailed things is difficult for me. I have trouble forming my thoughts into words and for this reason I get frustrated when people press me for lots of details and try to make me talk a lot. So I will sometimes lie to make something complicated to explain or something I know will elicit lots of questions into something simple and uninteresting. I have difficulty talking about myself and the things I like to do because they are quite personal to me, so I will also lie to deflect the topic of conversation away from myself and my interests. And I have always lied to cover up the difficulties I have with everyday things because people were so intolerant of them growing up.
Since figuring out what was behind all this stuff I am slowly working on doing it less and being more authentic. However, I do believe that in an everyday setting lies are mostly employed to help people (whether the liar or the lie-ee) rather than harm others - to not hurt others' feelings, to make a situation easier for one or the other, etc. They are necessary and not always bad, even though as an aspie I understand wishing other people would be more transparent in what they say.
I define lying as the "intentional act of deceiving others, whether through omission of real fact, the disregarding of real fact, or proclamation of falsehoods despite real fact, or also all of the above".
For example of each:
Deception: Doing something behind someone's back that in the end would harm them in some way (whether emotionally or physically, doesn't matter)
Omission: Not telling said person about said action (for whatever reason).
Disregard: Not caring what the truth is and instead going with said lie.
Proclamation of Falsehoods: Bending language/facts/etc. to suit yourself while giving false "facts" to others, for whatever reason, usually regarding a specific topic.
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For example of each:
Deception: Doing something behind someone's back that in the end would harm them in some way (whether emotionally or physically, doesn't matter)
Omission: Not telling said person about said action (for whatever reason).
Disregard: Not caring what the truth is and instead going with said lie.
Proclamation of Falsehoods: Bending language/facts/etc. to suit yourself while giving false "facts" to others, for whatever reason, usually regarding a specific topic.
I agree with your definition!
I agree to an extent.
In particular, even if someone does not know their statement was wrong, it is still a lie if they reasonably should have known it was wrong or that they didn't have enough information to make the statement.
If they are making a statement about some particular fact and they aren't sure about the fact, then they should preface it with an "I think" or something similar to make it clear that there is room for doubt.
I can't even tell a white lie to save someone's feelings. When put in a situation that could be eased with a lie I just try to avoid the question.
To me a lie implies done with intent. What you said to me that isn't true has to be intentional rather than mistaking or misinformed or false memory or because your point of view is wrong and that is how you see it or because their opinion is wrong and BS, or because their minds don't work right. I had a friend with DS who unintentionally lied but she didn't do it on purpose because she copied what people say. It was like echolalia. She pick up what she hear and repeat it like the time she said her dad died but what she meant was her grandfather died and she heard her mother say that about him. Plus her memories would collide and it be "My dad died in a car accident" when she meant her grandfather died and a man behind them rearended them. It be unfair to say she lies and makes stuff up because she doesn't do it on purpose. I took everything she said as a grain of salt.
Okay if someone said they were going to do something and then something else happened and it kept them from doing it, they didn't lie. It was unintentional. Now if they knew they were not going to do it and they said they were going to, then that be a lie. What if they simply forgot they said they were going to do it? Not a lie.
It someone has schizophrenia so they said things that were not true, they are not lying because they do believe they are true. Now if they made up something and pretended it was their hallucinations, then that be a lie.
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Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
Okay if someone said they were going to do something and then something else happened and it kept them from doing it, they didn't lie. It was unintentional. Now if they knew they were not going to do it and they said they were going to, then that be a lie. What if they simply forgot they said they were going to do it? Not a lie.
It someone has schizophrenia so they said things that were not true, they are not lying because they do believe they are true. Now if they made up something and pretended it was their hallucinations, then that be a lie.
so using this logic, Obama never lied.
You sound like you have a kindergartener's conception of lying.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1129816?uid=3739472&uid=2&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21101385086803
5 year olds were more likely than older children or adults to define unintentionally untrue statements (inaccurate guesses) as lies. Most older children and adults defined lies as intentionally untrue statements.
Personally, I'd say a lie does have to be intentional. If you unintentionally say something that isn't true, that's a mistake, not a lie.
I disagree. The concept of 'white lies' as a good kind of lie is pretty widespread (a white lie is something like 'no, you don't look fat'). Plus, lies to protect a victim are generally agreed to be good (eg a Nazi asks you if you know where this one Jew is, and they're hiding in your basement).
Indeed, in the link I gave above, 72% of NT 11 years olds (they didn't ask adults this bit) said that lies were 'not always' bad.
Indeed, in the link I gave above, 72% of NT 11 years olds (they didn't ask adults this bit) said that lies were 'not always' bad.
I don't think we're talking about lying to save a human life or protect someone, that of course is acceptable because if we told a nazi where a jew was hiding, then we'd be responsible for the death of a human being, but lying for the sole purpose of deceiving another person, without a real need (if someone's life doesn't depend on it) is unequivocally wrong.
As for the 11 yr olds, were they also asked what an acceptable "lie" is? I bet they weren't, and the lack of that knowledge will lead them to believe that they decide what lies are right and wrong, just like half of society today, and that lack of real knowledge is why so many people think it's ok to lie.
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