"I Don't Believe You" - trying to prove invisible

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Interesting. I've heard that we're supposed to be good at math and science, but never art. In any case, it's definitely not universal, any more than math and science are. I'm horrible at math and I was interested in science as a child but not so much anymore, other than a few specialized areas.

Temple Grandin has talked about drawing and building things due to her visual thinking and that is how she grew up to be a designer inventing things for cattle. So she feeds into that stereotype. So does Heather, that American Super Model. Then there is The Seige and Exiting Nirvana (sp) and it's also about an autistic person and she is good with art too. Plus that Times magazine article in 2001 about autism mentioned us being good artists and how we tend to use more detail than NTs.

If you prefer drawing from photos (as I do) you might find that the old school graph method works quite well. I will take my digital image and open it in photoshop. There I will tweak color, brightness, and contrast. Sometimes I will stretch skew and crop images to my desire. Then using the line tool I will lay out a graph in a sharp contrasting color. Then I lightly draw a corresponding graph on my paper canvas or whatever. I find it tons easier to translate the image since I am looking at one square at a time. This is especially great if you find yourself getting proportions out of whack.

I had a similar conversation about my handwriting once - being told after decades of trying and failing to improve that my problem was that I should try harder, and not that I have actual issues with handwriting.

I think with some people they just don't accept that anyone could possibly have real limitations, and treat any such statement as making excuses or lying. I don't have much time for such people.

I think my original point got lost in this thread amongst all the background and explanations. I'm perfectly satisfied with my artistic ability and not at all frustrated by the fact that I can never be a traditional artist. (And no, the graph method doesn't work for me, as I explained earlier in the thread.) My intended purpose was:

1. To try to find ways to communicate to NTs (and even other aspies) what our sensory issues are like using a visual method rather than just trying to explain it. The examples I provided were intended to do this - to demonstrate visually and with an accompanying explanation of how it worked. It seems that this image and explanation alone are not enough to get my point across, so I'm going to try to do a video next. Maybe today.

2. To explain why I think it's necessary to do this, that it's understandable that NTs do not believe or understand what we go through because they have no physical evidence for it and taking someone at their word when it comes to something that seems outlandish is not something we should all expect them to do.

All the discussions about our various strategies for art and what we are good at and how we struggle, etc. etc. was just sidetracking (I have a terrible tendency to stray from my point and try to answer every question even if it's off-topic which I'm sure can get very confusing). I also did not intend for the conversation to be about our individual frustration with not being believed by NTs. I think all of us have been there, probably often, and we all know that we all get frustrated by it, but what I meant with all this was not just to rant about my personal frustration, but to try to find ways of improving communication and providing physical evidence for our claims so that they are more likely to believe us and maybe even understand a little bit what we're going through.

You can't force someone to understand you just by insisting that you are telling the truth, and you can't expect people to believe you without any evidence whatsoever. It's not our fault that we're like this, but it's also not their fault that they can't understand. So what I want to do is find new ways of making that understanding possible.

Does anyone else have any other constructive items to offer, such as images of "what you see" or demonstrations of how your perception works? My drawing did not succeed in getting the point across, but I'm not about to give up. If I can make it work today, I'll make a video where I narrate my drawing process and what I'm seeing as I draw, and how it's affecting my results. It would be great to get examples from other people as well, if anyone has something to offer.

Losing the forest for the trees makes organization and decision making difficult. Must be tough trying to show 3 dimensions on a (practically) 2 dimensional piece of paper.

It is always easier to deny something than to try to understand and accept it.

NT people can't live without denial - it's a coping mechanism of sorts, just like AS people's quirks.

I thought the blog was good. If it will change her mind, I'm not sure. I don't think it will. Perhaps when you tell someone for the first time, you should point them to your blog at first

They don't ever seem to understand, and probably never will. But in their defence, I have to add, that it is impossible to know everything of yourself and what you can and cannot do. I guess, this is the mentality they have because anyone should try and then at least know. That you are doing so well, because you haven't tried hard enough right? I think they confuse the basic things and what it is to be genius or savant. Also not everyone fills this mould/cookie cutter. So it is difficult to gauge and like you said, don't want to be made a fool of. I sometimes wonder if they get a superiority complex about it too, if you disclose.

OK, I have made a video, but it will take a very long time to upload because of my horrible DSL upload speed. While it's uploading I'll prepare some more images to complement the video. I think I will make a new thread to share this video instead of continuing this one, since I think my original point in this thread got lost and I'd like to start fresh with a clearer intention. I'll edit this post with a link to the new thread once it's ready.

I have a lot of similar problems to the OP in that I believe some of my family and some acquaintances - i won't call them friends, have difficulties in
accepting that I struggle with the whole range of sensitivities, physical and social difficulties that a lot of the people here on wrong planet have to deal with on a daily basis.

Unfortunately for me, unlike you, I cannot point to a diagnosis, and have to leave it up to them to argue with themselves ( or try to with me ) that they know more than a clinical psychologist. Which is frankly ridiculous.

One of my family members has decided to infer every time the subject comes up that I am delusional in trying to get a diagnosis.
However she also thought I was delusional previously to even bring up the subject of dyslexia --- (people like to self-appoint as experts) -- so I have had surreal conversations trying to educate her about my dyslexia, pointing out that 2 different psychologists have diagnosed me with it - one with a phd in educational psychology, and both with years of experience in dealing with adult diagnoses.

The result of these efforts: them refuting my diagnosis with one sweeping statement: "oh, but you can spell and read so well !"

Look- this is the level of education/awareness of most people. This is why we struggle. There are a lot of people who appear to be interested in why you find things hard, but when you explain why, they just don't want to know. They switch off. They must have their reasons, but I am getting tired of them now.

All this effort to convince someone to believe in your diagnosis, to find just the perfect facts to get them to understand you.
Seriously - if you have a diagnosis, and your friend won't accept it, no amount of convincing or providing evidence from 3rd parties will change this persons' view, until they decide to stop being so irrational, or own up to not understanding a thing about this subject.

If they do not have the intelligence to recognise that on the subject of the autistic spectrum, they know next to nothing, even if you
give them good hard facts - they either can't register what it is you are saying because they lack the knowledge base for this to even make sense to them, or they will choose to continue to bully you ( which is what it is ), and maintain their frankly obnoxious stance.

Some people are bullies, some are ignorant - some are both - like other posters have written earlier, you have to ask yourself if this is the sort of person that you wish to spend your energy on. I wish you all the best with this - its because of this kind of situation, that a lot of us are out of work at the moment, and struggle to get through life, even though we have so much to offer society.

re the art side of things.

From what i gather from other art students I know, technique can play a huge part in getting proportions right.
If you don't get the right kind of teacher or class, you can get very downhearted making the same mistakes again and again.
I don't know if you mentioned it, but different teachers can really impact on your learning, as they often teach different methods of drawing.

For example - do you use a viewfinder? Have you tried not moving your head when you draw- only your eyes?
Definitely, there could be an issue with holding info in short term memory ( which is why moving around makes it worse)
Plus only allowing yourself 5 mins for a sketch, things like that, will improve your editing skills. Good luck !

p. s. Also trying different classes - sometimes, it can be difficult to learn skills on your own - even though nothing replaces hours of sketching etc ..
I would really suggest taking as many different subjects in 2D and 3D arts and crafts and fine art - your hand skills and coordination will improve, which in turn will impact on your drawing etc.. Focusing on something that you find difficult is important, but sometimes tackling it from a different angle can help.

Yes, I have tried various methods and I have taken several art courses. Grids do not work and no amount of training seems to make it any easier. I don't think it's an issue of memory so much as I genuinely cannot decipher what I see and translate something I see to the paper. I have been actively practicing and drawing for over 20 years and explored many different techniques. I have read books, taken classes, and worked together with other artists. I am absolutely convinced that my issue is purely neurological and no technique or amount of practice is going to make a difference.

1. I can't tell which lines/details are important and which are not. Ever. I either draw all the details which just makes a mess, or try to guess which details matter and always guess wrong.
2. I cannot tell size and distance. I cannot tell how far I am moving the pencil. When I finish a badly-proportioned drawing, I can hold it up to what I was drawing and see that it is "wrong" but I have absolutely no idea why.
3. I'm really perfectly satisfied with my artistic skill. I'm still always practicing and trying new methods. I like the art I create. I never meant this thread to be about lamenting my lack of skill. I'm just not capable of being a "traditional" artist, and I'm trying to use that as a way of demonstrating how my abnormal perception has a practical effect on my life, with the ultimate goal of trying to give NTs and those who do not have this kind of perception some sort of insight into what it is like, since verbal descriptions do not suffice.

The video is just about ready now. I'll make a new thread, hopefully making my intentions clearer, and put a link to it here.

EDIT: And here it is! http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt219339.html

hi there,

what you've written makes a lot of sense to me.

Like you, I've tried to learn to draw in the traditional sense - and I have tried over the past 30 or so years to "get it"

My conclusion is linked to the reason why I don't drive - its down to non-verbal learning difficulties, proprioception and in addition dyspraxic symptoms that can vary day to day.

In the same way that I've tried repeatedly with high level maths, and have failed, I think that learning to draw - as in reproducing exactly what is in front of me
may always be out of my reach.

It doesn't stop us being artists, but I agree - its infuriating for someone to suggest that it is down to a lack of effort, that means you cant draw in a classical sense, because it sounds like you have been putting in the effort all the time, and its just not happening the way you want it to.

all the best and look forward to seeing the video!

The video is already up. The link is in this thread (not putting it here as well to try to keep comments on this in one place): http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt219339.html

Thanks for your feedback. Nice to know others do have the same difficulties as me and understand what I'm talking about.