Starting to distrust 1st Gens...

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As a Mom described the same - I agree with this, below, quoted from Chloe's post - I am 46 with adult kids - I had nothing to go on but my own confused experiences - I did type out a thoughtful post but I have an appointment now, so I won't get back to it until later.

"I have another question about 1st gen? I am 33 yrs old, i'm guessing your mother is either my age or older. Now in the 1980s we had NOTHING for Autism unless you were a classic case of low functioning then you'd go to an institution. For any in betweens they had no terms for it just "bad social skills" etc. They put me in Special Ed to get help them, however i didn't get a diagnosis until decades later.

Technically your mother would have been not been diagnosed until much later. It could be possible that NTs treated her very badly when she was young and she just wanted to protect you from that. She sounds like a good person, who had your best interests at heart. "

In the end, it's all about an individual's happiness. If isolation makes one happier than socialization then one should seek isolation. If isolation makes someone miserable but they can't socialize effectively then they should learn social skills. Personally, I don't care much either way; I'm happy in isolation but I suppose I wouldn't mind social skills. I do tend to resent the stupidity of my peers and I occasionally mock them (being intellectually superior helps with this) . If I were in your situation, I would just try to have a more open mind about society.

You need to understand that NTs are not more responsible for being like they are than you are for being like you are - it's just that they are more than you, and the majority is considered to define normality.
If it helps, see them as having a disorder too - since "order" is a totally subjective definition.

We are all slaves of our genes. Blame them, not the individuals or the mass.

"Bad" is one of the ideas.
It is so ingrained in the language, however, that it can easily make one come across as a hypocrite just through general speech.
In all literality, I don't believe in values like "good" or "bad". Such matters are just inaccuracies in the interpretation of incompatibility... but more importantly, the actual promotion of the erroneous ideas of "good" and "bad" is seriously contrary to my interests.



I suspect much of my mother's influence was simply trial and error... and for that matter, she believes so too, and has said as much to me.
She isn't stupid, but she is somewhat naive and frequently gets confused about things and needs to ask me for clarification.



In her own sense I'm pretty sure she was trying to live vicariously through me since she screwed up her own academic career and wanted me to get further. In the end I did get further, but not as far as she would have liked. Isn't really the point though. When normality was brought up, it was only ever as a criticism levelled at the anti-intellectuals. Pretty much all she ever wanted of me was to be smarter than everyone else... and what she got is my being smarter than most people, along with a crippling intolerance of idiocy... by which I am constantly surrounded, driving me perpetually into deeper stress and despair.



I think that would take a while to really express. I didn't have a single, particular thing in mind when I made the reference... but things like dependence-morality... or collective superiority. Notions I can't abide.



Short version : I distrust anyone I believe has bought too much into the beliefs of the collective (i.e. society in general). 1st Gens by definition have neurotypical parents, and the vast majority of neurotypicals are collectivists... and given that any given person is generally most strongly influenced by their parents... well, I think you see where this is going. Or perhaps I hope.



Good for you. Your prize is a big, shiny nothing.



Your surprised (or mock-surprised) reaction is pretty damning.



That'd be pretty tough, since there is no such thing as objective superiority.
More often than not though, those who accuse me of trying to be / seem / believe myself "superior" give the distinct impression of believing in such an absurd thing as a generic human value hierarchy, and that they're somehow taking offense at not being personally triumphant in this imaginary scale...
It doesn't mean the first thing to me. I play my own game. Solo.
You might be, and yet you might not be... as regards believing in such things... I draw no conclusions.



... Just look at that last sentence. Use of the word "normal" as though somehow that, in and of itself, is enough to justify anything and everything and make it all peachy, fine and dandy. I don't believe you meant to do it... but that you can do it so casually is the very sort of thing that prickles the edges of my paranoia.



I am me to judge. Judgement isn't an exclusive right. Though everyone does it, they are just as quick to criticise others for doing so... no?
Not the point though... I'm seeing it in your words. Not "you", but "it". The influence. Speaking about alienating myself as though it were inherently undesirable... when it is merely a thing, devoid of values. I wouldn't mind it in the slightest if it meant people would go away. They don't go away though... so it is quite the dilemma.



I can fake it, on occasion, though I dislike having to do so. I get your point though. Society isn't the sort of beast I could hope to fight head-on.

You are dodging my point - you seem to believe that autistic people should have values more like yours and when they do not you denigrate their intellect and capacity for thought while simultaneously painting conformity as the problem, even though you seem to want a kind of conformity in which autistic people join you in rejecting those things you consider (however you want to phrase it) as "bad." Apparently it is okay to characterize people negatively but when someone sums up your views (accurately) as "you see these things as bad" you make semantic distinctions about how "bad" is one of the ideas that you reject.

Looking at your original post:



The bolded bits are fairly negative characterizations. Did you really expect to make an assertion that people who do not think like you do not have the capacity for thought and not understand that this is characterizing people who are not like you as "bad?" I am trying to see something - anything - in your diatribe that shows more than a shallow characterization of people with whom you disagree, let alone any sign of the perspective you claim you hold beyond a rote rejection of "collectivist values."

So far there's nothing to indicate what you reject, or why a lack of such rejection indicates a lesser intellect or even someone "incapable of thought." There's nothing to debate here.

This sort of discussion is one of the many reasons I do not and likely will never identify myself as an "Aspie."

I lost the "thoughtful" post - and probably most of my original ideas.

I know, with my kids, who are both very intelligent, I tried to cultivate that which I had hoped would make them resilient, give them something to "hold" as it were, in a world that I was unable to navigate easily and which I did not have the "tools" to help them through their own increasingly complex social relationships - and as my youngest has AS, but was misdiagnosed as ADD - and my eldest has traits at the very least, when they hit social troubles in school I was in a tail spin - I tried to protect them, I tried to help them see that their worth did not depend on society - I was really at sea, but tried what I could think of that would help them in the world, not hinder them - that's what I hope for them. The little tiny scrap of self-esteem I had came from intellect - it seemed a logical thing to nurture in kids who were naturally curious and intellectual and really, really neat - I thought they were, and still are - so interesting and have so much to offer, and I hope that they can see it.

It had never been my goal to segregate them from having a meaningful place and purpose in society, but to see that being different is okay, to know that their worth does not depend on society's measure, and to develop some skills so they would feel good about themselves - you know, it is a little confidence to play an instrument, for example. I think they are both amazing and I am proud of them. I would hope that they use their intelligence and non-conformity to challenge people to think in new ways and see that this can be a very positive thing. Be an artist, be a writer, just be a provocateur and enjoy the opportunity to teach - or to plant seeds for people to consider - not everyone will, but we can't control that. And don't underestimate the intelligence of other people. I am not socially clever, doubt I ever will be, but people are interesting and there is much to learn. One suggestion is that if you don't feel like you "fit" - talk to older people. Even without your intellect, you still have worth. Use that wonderful vocabulary you have and write a novel about how you would like to see society or to critique society - look at Orwell, for example - design a game - I think creativity is a good outlet. Just a thought.

True. My mother and I both went undiagnosed for a very long time. Diagnosis came later. I sought mine out because I needed that certainty. Not sure at what point she got hers, but she informed me of it via e-mail not long after I'd got mine... and I told her I'd long suspected as much. The fact that she'd always dealt with her problems via isolation was kinda telling in hindsight... along with the whole moving-to-the-middle-of-nowhere thing.
Just as an aside that also seems rather amusing in hindsight... I used to think the concept of "friends" was just some weird thing invented for television...... like they were trying to fill the absence of cats in their lives with other humans, which is a bit of a silly idea. =P

As to why I wouldn't trust the 1st Gens.... I've been getting led about for much of this thread so far so I've been forgetting what I was trying to get across with this in the first place.... The mind wanders so easily.
I've always distrusted mundies. It makes sense. They communicate primarily through lies.
But only after being around other Aut-Kin have I realised that many still seem to hold values that I'd always distinctly thought of as mundie things... taking things for granted that are yet alien to me. (And in my usual obnoxious style, I react by trying to beat them round the head with my own ways... not that I have any incentive to stop doing so).




Could we please leave that one off for now?
The subject of "happiness" is another one I get very bitter about it. I want nothing to do with it, and am not particularly predisposed towards it anyway.
Well enough alone and all that.




Being that way isn't the concern.
Marketing it as virtue is the concern.
It is one thing for them to be born idiots... but it is another entirely for them to casually and naturally treat me with hostility because I'm not of their particular flavour of idiocy. That is a special kind of madness that I cannot endure.




You misunderstand... but I'll put that down to my being unskilled at explaining. Either that or the language being an inadequate thing to explain IN.
Both, probably... v_v;
Whether I can confer more understanding a second time or not... I don't know.
I'm somewhat short on energy by now... and having written, rewritten, deleted and redeleted this attempted explanation about 10 times by now... I think it would be best to postpone it until I'm sure of what I want to say (if I can be bothered at all). The last thing I need is for you to completely fail to understand yet again (complete with practically rote dismissal-misrepresentation).




And not understand that... No. Incorrect.
You interpret it that way, but that is not something inherent in my statements so much as in your interpretation of them.
It is not a matter of thinking as I do or not. If one's mental process is just a chain of non-sequiturs then it can't really be said to be thought. Even if there is a chain of causality from one to the next, if the stages aren't all accounted for in conscious consideration then it is not thought.




You seem quite determined not to find such a thing, and I'm quite assured of your ability to succeed in that regard... no matter the odds.
Having analysed a few of your other comments recently, I've noticed you have quite a knack for that.




Funnily enough, I never use that term either... though if you think for a second that I should be regarded as representative of a generalisation, you're severely mistaken.

Funny. After reading that post, I (The most important poster on WP, the only one here capable of thought, the intellectual amidst the peons who can't think for themselves and the blithering idiots scrambling over each other and burying themselves in layer after layer of deception and misdirection) can establish that you (an insignificant "mundie" compared to the glory of I) are not on the Autistic Spectrum, but just another member of this tedious crowd:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissist ... y_disorder

Last edited by GGPViper on 09 Jan 2013, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This talk of "Ist Generation" and "2nd" generation is silly. While the term "Aspergers Syndrome" dates only from the 1980's and the term "autism" dates only from the 1940's, it is quite likely that the phenomenon itself is far older. I don't know if it's as old as the Neanderthal Theory threads make it out to be. But it's certainly old enough to make any talk of "1st Generation" pointless. How much do you really know about your grandparents? or about their parents? about your aunts, uncles, great aunts and great uncles and so on back and back.

You have no idea which generation you are. It could be 30th for all you know.

My mother sounds a lot like the description of your mother and I was raised with some of the values you describe. She has no diagnosis, nor do I. My daughter does. However the traits are there in my mother, far weaker in me, and strong indeed in my daughter. I recognize the sort of upbringing you briefly describe. But I veered off course, as she would say, and don't think those values are ones I want to live by or transmit to my daughter. In any case, I would not describe her as 1st generation (nor myself as 2nd generation since it seems to have skipped a generation and gone straight to my daughter) since I have no idea if my grandparents, great grandparents etc. would be considered on the spectrum, were they alive today.

I often feel the same way (as the OP) but I think it's easy to think like this is you are too isolated from other people. They all become one heterogeneous mass who are 'not like me'. I do it myself a lot. I find I become more open-minded when I mix with people with attitudes that are different to my own. I would class myself as an intellectual and I like to discuss ideas but I have noticed that non-intellectual people can often be more interesting and entertaining than me so I feel it's better to have some variety in my life and not just seek out other intellectuals as it can become a bit boring.

It also depends on the extent to which a person wants to fit in with other people. If they want it badly they will take on the opinions
of the people/group they want to fit in with.

I am not engaging in rote dismissal or misrepresentation. I have read your words as you wrote them.





This betrays a lack of understanding of others' thoughts on your part, and not a true deficiency that you have identified. It is easy to assume one's own thought processes are rational and considered and factual while everyone else's is biased, irrational, and possibly not even thought. It is a way of simply dismissing others who do not think as you do.

Saying that people who do not agree with you are incapable of thought is a fairly insulting thing to say. It is inherent to what you say because there is simply no way to claim that other people are incapable of thought that is not insulting. The failure to understand that is a flaw in your thinking, not anyone else's for seeing it.



When you claim that you're essentially the only person capable of rational thought, you should expect to encounter disagreement. It is rather unrealistic to expect others to simply agree with you and find no fault with your arguments.



I do not believe you have analyzed my other comments to any reasonable degree, and your observations about the quality of my commentary is at odds with what I typically hear from others. I will take that to mean that your bias against thinking that is not your own makes it difficult to take your assessment seriously.



Your misplaced, misguided, and mistaken sense of cerebral superiority is not particular unusual, actually. It's not specific to aspie supremacists, but it is definitely common amongst them.

You should remember that isolating oneself from the world, however desirable it may be (and I think it often is) is not that easy or even possible for all aspies, especially the "1st gens" you mention. I'm Chloe's age and have only gained the opportunity to do so very recently. Don't distrust people for internalizing hatred they couldn't escape. Some here grew up in a very aspie-friendly environment and don't seem to realize how rare that is and how lucky they were.

The internalized hatred and self-rejection is not an unsolvable problem anyway. A lot of us struggle with it. Every single disabled person born to non-disabled parents has to deal with it, and even the ones who do have a disabled mentor will be wading through a stew of fear, pity, rejection they can't help but absorb.

I really don't see why you'd want to distrust people just because they have to deal with that crap much more than you do. Wouldn't that be a reason to tell them what you've learned, instead of backing away and trying to distance yourself?

Also, characterizing them as easily led and incapable of thought.

Interesting perspective. As for myself, my father and grandfather; we are all undiagnosed Aspies. That makes my daughter a 4th generation autie!

To some degree, I appreciate AS because of the way I'm not like the "mewling mess of blithering idiots scrambling over each other and burying themselves in layer after layer of deception and misdirection simply because it is what they've always done."

However....

AS has cost me the ability to enjoy friends, lovers...heck even sex. I've worked beneath my ability because the lack of social interconnection keeps me from being considered for gainful opportunities that could AT LEAST provide me with a good quality of life, hobbies, toys, etc. to make up for what I'm lacking.

So, I kinda have the worst of both worlds. I'm lucky to be functional enough to be able to hold a job.

Then, I meet NTs who have their heads on pretty straight. They don't buy into the garbage as do the "blithering idiots" we despise. This makes me angry....it means I could be NT, have ALL the options and NOT need AS to be different from the "blithering idiots".

Unlike TV and movies that push the LIE that being "special" is a blessing (the "special" person usually is unique in a way that makes him/her coveted by others), the TRUTH is that being "special" is often more a curse than anything else.

Yeah, much of that is the rest of the world being conformist and bigoted against anyone who isn't like the majority of the population, but it still boils down to what I may never have, never be able to enjoy/experience and the pain and anger I feel for having just enough "normal" in my life to know what I don't have yet not be "special" enough to be unique in a way that others appreciate.