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Free will vs Determinism

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jonny23
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22 Jan 2013, 3:21 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jaden wrote:
The problem with the deterministic viewpoint is anyone can use that belief as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions in life.
Philosophy aside (because that's all it is), everyone has free will and choose to make their own decisions, they choose to do what they do, and choosing determinism as a philosophy is no exception to that free will.
Free will is absolute and can never be taken away as the ruling decision maker.

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't mean it isn't true.

I believe everything is determined. If today started again, without anybody knowing, would anybody make a different decision? No, the day would turn out exactly the same. That to me says that today was guaranteed to happen this way, and tomorrow is guaranteed to happen as tomorrow will happen.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I've had the same though myself but I just wonder if this is true. Logic tells me that if you line up every force and molecule the same way will things will turn out the same. Just like running a computer program with the same parameters but the universe is a strange place.



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22 Jan 2013, 3:32 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jaden wrote:
The problem with the deterministic viewpoint is anyone can use that belief as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions in life.
Philosophy aside (because that's all it is), everyone has free will and choose to make their own decisions, they choose to do what they do, and choosing determinism as a philosophy is no exception to that free will.
Free will is absolute and can never be taken away as the ruling decision maker.

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't mean it isn't true.

I believe everything is determined. If today started again, without anybody knowing, would anybody make a different decision? No, the day would turn out exactly the same. That to me says that today was guaranteed to happen this way, and tomorrow is guaranteed to happen as tomorrow will happen.


I know this is a bit off topic but coo coo ca choo.



undercaffeinated
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22 Jan 2013, 3:51 pm

Personally I believe we have "will" that is not actually free but appears to be to us. That given enough information about the current state of the universe, our choices would be predictable. Basically, it's all predetermined, but we don't know how it will turn out, and it's just not practical to behave as though we don't have free will.

We make choices, even if the choices we make are predetermined. Things will definitely turn out a certain way, but we don't know what that way is. Although our choices are predermined, we still have to make them and take responsibility for them.

So essentially, in order to live a functional life, we need to behave as though we have free will, even if it is actually an illusion. We do have the power to make our own decisions, it's just that all those decisions would be predictable if we had enough information (and mental capacity) to predict them.



jonny23
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22 Jan 2013, 4:01 pm

undercaffeinated wrote:
Personally I believe we have "will" that is not actually free but appears to be to us. That given enough information about the current state of the universe, our choices would be predictable. Basically, it's all predetermined, but we don't know how it will turn out, and it's just not practical to behave as though we don't have free will.

We make choices, even if the choices we make are predetermined. Things will definitely turn out a certain way, but we don't know what that way is. Although our choices are predermined, we still have to make them and take responsibility for them.

So essentially, in order to live a functional life, we need to behave as though we have free will, even if it is actually an illusion. We do have the power to make our own decisions, it's just that all those decisions would be predictable if we had enough information (and mental capacity) to predict them.


That brings up the issue that if some day we could predict what going to happen will that fact have an influence? Would knowing the future change the future and thus create an unpredicted outcome? Makes my head hurt!



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22 Jan 2013, 4:26 pm

jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.


I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


I'm not saying peer pressure makes anyone do anything. It does however have an effect and if your decision was affected then it wasn't totally free. If you have ever refrained from doing something in public that would be frowned upon you have given in to peer pressure.


Having ones decision affected by certain things doesn't change ones ability to make said decision. Refraining from doing something is also a choice, free will is still intact. Nothing can truly change free will/freedom of choice.


Ok, what if we look at stuff that has a more measurable influence like drugs and alcohol. Someone who is drunk is not likely to choose the same as someone who is not. To me free will describes will as being free from influence. Sometimes there is more influence than others but ignoring that we ARE influenced leads to clouded judgment. If I understand that I am buying unhealthy snack food at the store because I am shopping when I am hungry it gives me more control.


You still make the choice to become impaired by substances to begin with, and as such, everything that happens as a result of such impairment is still the fault of the impaired.
For example: A drunk driver kills someone in a car accident, should it not be the drunk driver's fault because he was impaired? Of course not, law still holds that person accountable for their actions because they chose to become impaired and then drive while in such a state. Ignoring that we are influenced is obviously a precursor to clouded judgement, but we still are free to make whatever choices we wish to regardless of said influences. And as I stated in my other post; Free will = Freedom of choice


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22 Jan 2013, 4:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jaden wrote:
The problem with the deterministic viewpoint is anyone can use that belief as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions in life.
Philosophy aside (because that's all it is), everyone has free will and choose to make their own decisions, they choose to do what they do, and choosing determinism as a philosophy is no exception to that free will.
Free will is absolute and can never be taken away as the ruling decision maker.

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't mean it isn't true.

I believe everything is determined. If today started again, without anybody knowing, would anybody make a different decision? No, the day would turn out exactly the same. That to me says that today was guaranteed to happen this way, and tomorrow is guaranteed to happen as tomorrow will happen.


You can't make fact out of pure speculation, and just because you don't want to believe people have free will, regardless of the situation, doesn't mean it's not true either.
You have to look at that sort of thing objectively because you can't possibly know that the day will be exactly the same. A quantum physicist would tell you that the uncertainty principle plays a role in your theory as well, and as such nothing can be truly predicted with absolute outcome.


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22 Jan 2013, 4:45 pm

False dichotomy.
"Free will" as we know it is a product of causality.

Hypothetically speaking, if one could observe existence on a quantum scale without altering it (damn you Heisenberg) and process the ridiculous amount of data required to map subatomic movements to macroscopic cause and effect.... one could predict the future with unerring accuracy... SO for all intents and purposes all our choices and actions are predetermined.
BUT that doesn't mean we don't have "free will". It just means that "free will" isn't exactly what many assume it to be. The choices are still ours to make... but they're just choices we were going to make anyway, under the circumstances. And if you think about it sensibly, you will realise that there isn't any other way it could be. There isn't any possible way that any choice we make could be completely divorced from causality. It just doesn't make sense. We don't exist in some sort of solipsist vacuum, free of outside influence.

It isn't like I've ever lost sleep wondering whether my choices are really mine to make... as even myself and the concept of "mine" are part and parcel with those choices... and coming up with some imagined solution to this non-problem doesn't make a mote of difference to the way my life plays out.



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22 Jan 2013, 5:00 pm

Magnanimous wrote:
False dichotomy.
"Free will" as we know it is a product of causality.


Physics as we understand it is deterministic, but "as we understand it" is an important point. There is a theory, widely considered pseudoscience, that we have a quantum computer operating in our nerve cells, and that it ticks about 30 times a second, and that these ticks are essentially our experience of reality.

Anyway, if there are deeper layers to physics, which quantum physics indicates there are, then there may well be some layer that allows for free will. Perhaps we do have some sort of higher level existence that somehow makes choices.

But I do agree that based on what we see we do not really have free will.



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22 Jan 2013, 5:06 pm

Magnanimous wrote:
False dichotomy.
"Free will" as we know it is a product of causality.

Hypothetically speaking, if one could observe existence on a quantum scale without altering it (damn you Heisenberg) and process the ridiculous amount of data required to map subatomic movements to macroscopic cause and effect.... one could predict the future with unerring accuracy... SO for all intents and purposes all our choices and actions are predetermined.
BUT that doesn't mean we don't have "free will". It just means that "free will" isn't exactly what many assume it to be. The choices are still ours to make... but they're just choices we were going to make anyway, under the circumstances. And if you think about it sensibly, you will realise that there isn't any other way it could be. There isn't any possible way that any choice we make could be completely divorced from causality. It just doesn't make sense. We don't exist in some sort of solipsist vacuum, free of outside influence.

It isn't like I've ever lost sleep wondering whether my choices are really mine to make... as even myself and the concept of "mine" are part and parcel with those choices... and coming up with some imagined solution to this non-problem doesn't make a mote of difference to the way my life plays out.


If it were simply a matter of hypothetical constructs, one might agree, however free will crosses into reality and thusly must be taken objectively into consideration.

Free will is factly given every day because we use it every day to determine what we do moment to moment, whereas determinism is simply theory that has not, and can not be proven in reality, and must be taken only as such.


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22 Jan 2013, 5:10 pm

Jaden wrote:
If it were simply a matter of hypothetical constructs, one might agree, however free will crosses into reality and thusly must be taken objectively into consideration.

Free will is factly given every day because we use it every day to determine what we do moment to moment, whereas determinism is simply theory that has not, and can not be proven in reality, and must be taken only as such.

You define the former by circular reasoning, and simply reject the latter.
Given that the former is dependent on the latter, your conclusion does not and cannot follow.



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22 Jan 2013, 5:31 pm

Magnanimous wrote:
Jaden wrote:
If it were simply a matter of hypothetical constructs, one might agree, however free will crosses into reality and thusly must be taken objectively into consideration.

Free will is factly given every day because we use it every day to determine what we do moment to moment, whereas determinism is simply theory that has not, and can not be proven in reality, and must be taken only as such.

You define the former by circular reasoning, and simply reject the latter.
Given that the former is dependent on the latter, your conclusion does not and cannot follow.


Free will is never dependant on determinism.

Who ever said I rejected determinism? No-one. I take it as it is; theory. Determinism cannot be proven in reality. Free will however, can be and is, every moment of the day. For example, people have the choice to respond to this thread, or not. That is determined by free will.


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22 Jan 2013, 5:41 pm

Jaden wrote:
Determinism cannot be proven in reality. Free will however, can be and is, every moment of the day. For example, people have the choice to respond to this thread, or not. That is determined by free will.


Jaden, I think you are missing the original point. I'm not saying this to offend you, its just that you might actually be interested in understanding what the question at hand is.

I read your post and decided to respond. What was the process through which I decided? Neurons fired signals at each other, data was marshalled in my brain and my command center decided Yes, I Will Respond. But if this process was all the result of neurons, physical cells, that followed the laws of physics, then maybe I didn't really use any will. Maybe it was just a massively complex series of physics reactions that seemed like free will.

So, I don't actually think that is what is happening, but it is an interesting point and it can't simply be waved away.



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22 Jan 2013, 6:06 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Jaden wrote:
Determinism cannot be proven in reality. Free will however, can be and is, every moment of the day. For example, people have the choice to respond to this thread, or not. That is determined by free will.


Jaden, I think you are missing the original point. I'm not saying this to offend you, its just that you might actually be interested in understanding what the question at hand is.

I read your post and decided to respond. What was the process through which I decided? Neurons fired signals at each other, data was marshalled in my brain and my command center decided Yes, I Will Respond. But if this process was all the result of neurons, physical cells, that followed the laws of physics, then maybe I didn't really use any will. Maybe it was just a massively complex series of physics reactions that seemed like free will.

So, I don't actually think that is what is happening, but it is an interesting point and it can't simply be waved away.


I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered or even believed. I'm saying if people do believe that, they'll not only have to believe that choice, philosophy, and even consciousness itself is an illusion (something that science doesn't support), but they'll also use determinism as an excuse to not deal with responsibility in life.
The question must also be given as to what set off the neuron to begin with. I believe it is consciousness, and free will which allows for those kinds of things to happen to begin with. Our brains are only the conduit at which we maneuver.

My point is, we see free will every day, we know we are conscious, and we can make our own choices regardless of what may influence us in some way. Yes, we may get new information to help us make a better choice, but the choice is ultimately of our own determination. My brain doesn't make these choices, I do. As do we all.

Which reminds me, why is this in general autism discussion? shouldn't it be in philosophy?


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22 Jan 2013, 6:55 pm

Jaden wrote:
My point is, we see free will every day, we know we are conscious, and we can make our own choices regardless of what may influence us in some way. Yes, we may get new information to help us make a better choice, but the choice is ultimately of our own determination. My brain doesn't make these choices, I do. As do we all.


I think you are probably right, but I don't know how you can claim that we know we make our own choices. Consciousness could be an illusion.



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22 Jan 2013, 7:32 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Jaden wrote:
My point is, we see free will every day, we know we are conscious, and we can make our own choices regardless of what may influence us in some way. Yes, we may get new information to help us make a better choice, but the choice is ultimately of our own determination. My brain doesn't make these choices, I do. As do we all.


I think you are probably right, but I don't know how you can claim that we know we make our own choices. Consciousness could be an illusion.


Yes it could, but without any real science to say it is, I tend to see it as not being illusion lol.
I don't begrudge others for believing differently (as some may/may not think), I'm just saying this is what I believe lol.


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22 Jan 2013, 7:58 pm

Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Jaden wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
I believe in personal responsibility. I however do not believe that we have free will. We have will for sure but what we do and the decisions that we make are all shaped by our past, peer pressure, environmental pressures and how we're wired up. Is that to say that we have pre determined destinies and can't be changed? No it just means that there are other factor that influence our actions.

"
I don't personally believe in the excuse of "peer pressure", no one can make anyone do anything, through pressure or otherwise. I feel that people start using it as an excuse so they can live with their bad choices in life. That isn't to say that people can't influence each other, but rather that people like using that as an excuse for their actions so that they can live with themselves after the proverbial sh*t hits the proverbial fan.
People always look away from themselves when assigning blame for bad outcomes in life, but the reality is, you can only blame yourself for making the bad choices to begin with.

Free will = Freedom of choice


I'm not saying peer pressure makes anyone do anything. It does however have an effect and if your decision was affected then it wasn't totally free. If you have ever refrained from doing something in public that would be frowned upon you have given in to peer pressure.


Having ones decision affected by certain things doesn't change ones ability to make said decision. Refraining from doing something is also a choice, free will is still intact. Nothing can truly change free will/freedom of choice.


Ok, what if we look at stuff that has a more measurable influence like drugs and alcohol. Someone who is drunk is not likely to choose the same as someone who is not. To me free will describes will as being free from influence. Sometimes there is more influence than others but ignoring that we ARE influenced leads to clouded judgment. If I understand that I am buying unhealthy snack food at the store because I am shopping when I am hungry it gives me more control.


You still make the choice to become impaired by substances to begin with, and as such, everything that happens as a result of such impairment is still the fault of the impaired.
For example: A drunk driver kills someone in a car accident, should it not be the drunk driver's fault because he was impaired? Of course not, law still holds that person accountable for their actions because they chose to become impaired and then drive while in such a state. Ignoring that we are influenced is obviously a precursor to clouded judgement, but we still are free to make whatever choices we wish to regardless of said influences. And as I stated in my other post; Free will = Freedom of choice


Perhaps that was a bad example, what about all the people whos personalities have been altered by paracites? Or who's cognitive function has been reduced by pollution?