Son diagnosed..or not...with Aspergers

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Here's a link to the test. http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php



I understand the violence thing. I guess my question is whether he was ordered to this particular facility. If not, you might want to look around. Even if you don't do that, since the one Psych diagnosed the Asperger's that recommended him to this place, I'd put it strongly back on him to intercede with your son's doctor. Do not put up with ignorant doctors. It doesn't sound like you have been and that's good. Unfortunately, there is a lot of ignorance in the world and Asperger's is new. Doctors tend to focus on what they see the most. Asperger's usually isn't it.


Has your son seen a Neurologist? If not, I would suggest it. A Psych is fine for his depression, but even with his impulsive anger you have to be very careful about a shrink handling that. Like you said, he has to understand why he can't control himself and a shrink is not a Neurologist. A Neurologist needs to explain what is happening in your child's brain to both you and your child. This isn't something he can one day wake up and say, "I don't want to do anymore," and that will fix it. If he went to anger management, I don't think that would do much better. His biggest issue is that what should be in place in his brain to handle impulsive reaction to his frustration (or hurt feelings) is broken or missing completely. So, sending him to a shrink to fix that is probably going to frustrate him more. It isn't that he has a bad behavior, it's that he has broken wiring. Basically, he's got to figure out a way to reroute in order to solve that. Some are better at this than others. And if you understand the physiology of the brain, you'd know that some things can be rerouted and others cannot. That's because some areas of the brain can pick up slack for others and some can't. A Neurologist could explain this to you. A Shrink has no business even going there. I think both of you need to take a visit to a really good Neurologist ASAP. Search google for Neurologist Asperger's and see what comes up. It should pull the Neurologists who work with this disorder.


It isn't that I don't believe shrinks are good for some things...they are. You just have to be careful to distinguish between what is emotional or behavioral and what is Physiological. They are completely different things and need to be treated as such.


Here's the deal. Think of your brain and your son's brain like houses that started out exactly the same. In your house, you have doors to every room, including the bathroom. In his house, he only has a few doors and none of them lead to the bathroom. In that scenario, do you really think that you can hold him responsible to use the bathroom? Of course not. What you have to do is either find the tools that HE has (not you have in your house) to make an opening into the bathroom or find the currently hidden opening from another room. That is the only way to solve it. Saying he must use the bathroom since society expects it is just kind of sad and funny in that scenario, isn't it? Unfortunately, that's what people do to us all the time and, I hate to say it, but a big reason for that is that we end up treated by Psychiatrists without being treated by Neurologists. Until we change that, everyone involved is going to suffer frustration and hurt.


As to the digging ditches, let's not go there yet. There's no reason to do that. Why is he still writing by hand at 17? Did you know that some Aspies have almost no eye hand coordination, but can play music beautifully? My brother works with one right now...in a Science Lab. Once I figured out he was working with an Aspie and sent him some info, he and his boss switched it so that this poor young man, tormented by his horrible writing, now types everything. Guess what? It's all solved. He was actually not doing his work because he was so afraid to show his handwriting. How wasteful is that when it's so easy to find another way? So, if your son can type easier than he can write, why would they care? I have news for you. It's a disability. They have to make reasonable accomodations. It's the law. His doctor must write explicity what his limitations are and the school must accomodate. Don't present it as a request. It isn't one.


I would say that his hesitation to write has been holding him back which is why you haven't seen special interests pop up. If he can type, encourage him to write what is in his own mind and explore it to the fullest. If he can play music, same thing. If he can paint or draw, same thing. However he can express, except violence, encourage it.


Now as to that violence, I will offer you this as a cautionary tale. It's probably the reason I wasn't locked up as a child and what saved me. Unfortunately, my uncle paid the price. My uncle grew up in the 1930's in a very small, rural town. He had a hideous speech impediment. Something that today would have gotten him speech therapy classes. Back then, people didn't understand it. The kids teased him unmercifully and he fought with them. When he was ten, my grandfather was basically told to do something with him or else because "he" was violent. So, my grandfather did what you did with kids like that back then. He couldn't speak, right? Therefore he must be ret*d in some way. Plus, he was violent. My grandfather sent him to a lockup facility where he was housed with severely ret*d children and adults. I don't even know all that happened to him. I do know he had electroshock therapy by well meaning Psychiatrists. Needless to say, that didn't help. After awhile, he became like the ret*d people around him. He mimicked them. In the 1980's they figured out that he wasn't really ret*d and didn't need to be in there, so they abruptly booted him out. That was great. He had absolutely no idea how to survive after all those years in there. So, he moved into a halfway house where he was abused, then finally in with my aunt. He's now in his 80's and he has never lived on his own. All of this started because he couldn't control his temper when he was teased. As to the speech impediment? I had some cousins with it. They had speech therapy and it fixed it.

So just be cautious. Yes, the impulsive anger needs to be dealt with, but first you must understand why this is happening and it is a physical thing in his brain, not emotional or behavioral. Until the both of you understand that, you won't be able to deal with it. Much of your frustration and his deals with the holes in what you've been told. Go to the right source and get the holes filled in. You're already questioning it. If you weren't, you wouldn't be on here looking for answers. He knows something isn't right, but can't understand it and no one who is "helping" is really helping. That's why he's depressed and frustrated. Just picture yourself suddenly dropped on another planet where you can't speak the language. It's all done with telepathy. They understand each other perfectly, but you don't have the ability to do that. THAT is how he feels. Now just ask yourself how frustrated and depressed you would feel under those circumstances. Take away your ability to control certain impulses. See what happens. That is the world he lives in.


If nothing else, print this off and read it to him. See if he can identify with it. If he does, you know where to take it from there. Good luck to you both and thank you for not giving up on him.

Check this guy out. James Brasic. He's a Neurologist (and a Psychiatrist) who has done a lot of work with Autism and Asperger's. If you aren't close to him, his office might know of a good Neurologist in your area with this expertise. It can't hurt to ask. http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic147.h ... troduction


Also, check this out:

Casanova's recent research projects have examined brain abnormalities in patients with language disturbances, including autism, dyslexia and Asperger's syndrome. His interest has gradually come to focus on abnormalities of cortical neurocircuitry, in particular on the cell minicolumn, a vertical conglomerate of eighty to one hundred neurons that have in common a latency of response to stimulation. Using computerized imaging analysis, he has established the anatomical validity of the cell minicolumn. Casanova has reported interhemispheric differences in the morphometry of minicolumns that could provide explanations for the speciation of hominids. Localized in Broadmann area 22—part of Wernicke’s language region—the morphometric difference may play a role both in the development of language and in related disorders.

Casanova's most recent research studies have looked for abnormalities of minicolumnar organization and lateralization in the brains of patients who exhibit language disturbances, including autism, Aspergers syndrome, and dyslexia.

His neuromorphology research, conducted in collaboration with other researchers from around the globe, has found there are drastic differences in the brains of autistic individuals. He says the results of his recent studies, which show that minicolumns (or 'brain strands') of autistic spectrum individuals have more cells, but they are narrower and more densely packed, which he says can limit the brain's ability to send messages. This helps explain symptoms, says Casanova, since "there's not enough juice to actually power very long connections in the brain," adding that "It means that we have uncovered something very important, because it has explanatory powers."

Actually, Alex is only HALF right. It is an AUTISTIC thing! AS people can have that also. Then again, some others do also.

Steve

ZanneMarie, OMG, what a fabulous response! Thank you so much. To answer, yes, he was ordered by the court to attend this facility. It is for emotional disturbed youths. They are supposed to be helping him, yet they seem to be traveling down roads we've already been down.

Yes, he has been to a neurologist, but apparently not the right one. I will most definitely seek this methodology.

My current battle with the ISD (School District) is that he is SUPPOSED to be accomodated with a lap top or Alpha Writer to prevent this exact problem, however, it has not been done and the district has been lying to me stating that it was. After numerous ARD's and complaints, I finally realized the deception and I have been met with a resistance like you've never seen! As my youngest daughter has been heard saying, "Apparently, you don't know my mother."

Even though we're told "No child left behind", let me tell you, wrangling through the red tape BS in order to correct districts that don't want to provide special services is like trudging through play dough up to your knees in a pair of steel shoes, slow, arduous and daunting. I'm furious that I called the school and checked on my son's progress only to be deceived. I know that it's the law but try and get it enforced. The saddest part of me is, I don't believe that my son's case is isolated. How many other kids are going through this heqq without an advocate? That's another story.

The analogy was great. That, I can understand. Thank you.

As I think of it, he has had an MRI...but it was pretty much worthless because the imaging reflected off of his braces and distorted the entire thing. Perhaps it's time I have the MRI done again.

It is so unfair (but common), that when you work really hard to be "high functioning"....you dont get credit for the hard work but blamed when you break-down in some area.logic.....if you can do A but not B then you must be being "lazy,manipulative,etc"about B.It's the catch 22 of AS.

Example....I was in DramaTeam in 9th and 10th grade.I won honors and metals for my reading.What no one realized was that I got along better with those kids because we were all "nerds",they excepted me.That wouldnt have happened on the Dance Team.When I did my readings,I dissociated and became a character.My parents did not understand how someone could get in front of strangers and read and yet not go up to stranger in school and "make friends"........Because they take totally different skills.In one I "acting/mimicking"and have a written script.In the other,I had to read non-verbals,pull a script out of nowhere and do so without all kinds of sensory over-load in a noisy school.Point I am trying to make is....They say aspies cant generilize one learning experience to other areas.I think NT's do it TO much.Your son may have good boundaries in things you have taught him(he is 17,thats a lot of years to work on this).I know not to take someone elses lunch but have problems knowing what is "to personal" to divulge of my life or to ask others and often buy "things" for my DD clients....both bad boundaries.

Your son may have AS and another condition...."intermittent explosive disorder".Many autistics have "melt-downs" when stressed or over stimulated.I worked with teens for 8 years who were labeled ADHD,Anti-social,ODD...that had this disorder.It is neurological but they can get improvement with meds and behavior therapy to learn coping skills and stress relief.The problem is when the counselor is coming from the perspective that the "issue" is based on a "bad attitude" rather then possible sensory overloads or constant bullying.The clients I talked to said that they literally "saw red"...a red "halo" around peripheral vision....(Sounds pretty neurological to me.)Someone viewing my reaction of anger may think it is coming out of nowhere(just because they cant see where it is coming from....it's never nowhere).They may see it as "over" reaction because the person said something insulting.....not realizing that it was the 10th time the person had said that or the 10th time it was said by other people this week....it is accumulative stress.Aspeies can be like elephants....they dont forget(I am an exception in most things,have a lousy memory but remember many negative things from years ago and have difficulty forgiving).

(Your son maybe as surprised that he made contact as she or you were.After striking out in frustration and missing for years it can be quit a surprise when the punch hits its target....oops.)

I wish your son could find a positive spin on AS.Nothing like a little aspie pride and feeling like you fit in with a group of folks you(mostly) respect.Half my depression came from feeling like "the only freak"on the planet.I am not as pessimistic as some about "treatment facilities"....they are all different and some can provide a sense of community because most of the others there are "different".There will always be jerks(teen years can be brutal)but he may learn some good skills and make some friends who except him once they get to know him.I just wish there was someone there with some specialized understanding about AS who could educate some of the staff who work with him.Is there anyone there who you connect with and might be open to learning about AS?It should be the law.Would we expect a diabetic to go to a living situation where people didnt know how to test BG or count carbs.....it's really a crime,IMHO.

If your son doesnt know about the web site,please tell him to consider checking it out.There are folks her who want to help and might be able to offer him some suggestions in navigating NT world and his current placement.(Does he have a social worker and are they aware of AS?)They can be good advocates in protecting his legal right to "correct" placement.(Though,many are lazy and clueless....personal experience).

Having a mother who cares ,as you do,is the best thing he has going for me and more then many aspies ever get.One of the main differences in "successful aspies" and those who struggle more, is a good support system.(He may not realize that,but it is true).

Sorry this is so long and rambling...not one of my more coherent days.

Okay. Here's what you do. You go get yourself the nastiest, meanest lawyer you can find. I am talking the one you know is friends with no one. Whatever you do, do not find one who is nice, understanding or any of that other feeler stuff. You go looking for a shark. Get him or her to threaten the school with a lawsuit. Your child is covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act. Forget no child left behind. That's irrelevant. What they are doing is illegal according to a constitutional act and now, it is costing your child time in his future and that is called damages (not punitive damages, that's something else). That is a tangible thing and any lawyer can fight with that, but you need someone who is going to be able to get the job done and that means no holds barred. Call your congressman or congresswoman and your senators. Get that doctor to talk to them. Get your facts together in writing. Stop all verbal communication with these people because it does not preserve your rights or your child's. You are going to have start closing all the holes they are going to try to use to get out of this. If you have an action news where they expose bad contractors, etc., call them. Basically, you're going to close ranks, pull all of your artillery together and hit them with everything at once. Make them want you to shut up. This is how they look at things. 99.9% of people will go away if they are put off. Only .01% of people will actually fight back so hard they can't be ignored. So, the .01% are accomodated and the rest are ignored. No matter what, you make sure you are that .01%. Get in their face and get everyone else in their face. They will back down if you don't.


Now, as to that facility, I hate to say it, but the answer is in the name. "emotional disturbed youths" His problem is not emotional. Get your ducks in a row about the neuropathology of his problem and go back to the judge. See if he or she will consider an alternative. You need to show them that this is basically like treating an infection with novacaine. That will be a little hard since there's so little research, so make up for it with determination. If you sound convincing, people will back off. Again, that's the nature of 99% of the population. Remember that. It will help you. So, get your Neurology statement and show this is not an emotional problem. In no way present that there is no problem. Of course there is. This is simply to present for alternative treatment. If you can, get that shark of a lawyer to go in there and fight to get the treatment facility changed. You have new information so this is inside the boundaries of the law. If the judge can't get it, give him my example. It's easy and to the point.

And no matter what, when you are tired and lose faith, you just remember what happened to my uncle. That couldn't happen now for a speech impediment, but unfortunately it can happen with a different problem just like it did for your child. That will give you the strength to go on.

Krex and ZanneMarie, thank you so much. Krex, what you mentioned brought to mind something that my son does. If things get loud or chaotic, he takes himself out of the room. He says that the can't handle the noise and it disorients him. Sounds like what you're talking about. He also tells "friends" things that he shouldn't and then they use it against him and tease him. Bless his heart.

I think you guys are right...I've been barking up the wrong tree this whole time. I think one of the things that has made it so difficult is that he is also a sexual abuse victim so all these behaviors are entertwined and mixed up. I can't tell what's what but I know that there has to be a better life for him than what's he's going through now.

ZanneMarie, I've already emailed Dr. Brasic frequesting a referral in my area. If he's not able to help, I'll go through the pediatrician or my GP. And, lastly, I've already been looking for a no good, dirty down, junkyard lawyer that will show them the light of day! I hope I can find one!

Noise is one of my biggest things. I also leave. It is sometimes downright painful, but never less than disorienting. I also don't like to be touched (some of this is because I'm not always aware of things around me since I'm lost in my head). If I'm touched, I will also leave and this includes a touch on the arm or shoulder.

I also say things I shouldn't. That's my impulse shut down. I don't know how I'll ever stop that except duct tape.





Just remember that there can be emotional responses to both. He can be depressed both because he is Aspie and because he was sexually abused. By the way, there is a lot of belief that because we are so socially unaware and don't pick up on clues, we are more predisposed to stalkers and abusers. We can't read faces or subtexts of speech well, so we don't understand until it's too late.

You may also be dealing with a double whammy. He may not have the wiring to control his rage impulses and he may be hypersensitive to certain things because he was abused. Think of it as triggers with no safety. Someone hits his trigger and he has no safety there to catch him before he acts. That's always a possibility and one you should explore.


It is tangled, but on a good note, Aspies love puzzles, even when it comes to themselves. If he sees it as a puzzle, he may be able to help you figure it out. In turn, he may figure it out for himself.




It's most unfortunate my lawyer is retired. His last name was Hoffa. Just the name alone usually made them stop and think. He was also a shark, which helped.

Ha! Hoffa, yes that would tend to get attention.

My son doesn't like to be hugged either, which I always attributed to his abuse. When you hug him, he's stiff and standoffish, Yet another thing I'll need to explore.

I think I'll stay on this forum a while so I can pick up more nuances that I've been misinterpreting all this time!

What IDIOTS do you have at the hospitals there! He had BRACES and had an MRI? STUPID!! !! !! ! Give him a CT scan!

Steve

Apparently we have some really healthy ones. Prior to the procedure I asked the tech, "Won't his braces interfer with imaging?" "Well, they might..."

But let's face it...it's all about the money.

The braces are gone now. I'll have it redone.

Hearsawho(are you a big fan of "sneetchs with stars apon thars?"I love Dr Suisse)

I just wanted to add that I am 43,female and only recently DXed with AS.I have a life-long experience with the psychiatric community,mostly for depression and later chemical dependency(self-medicating my AS traits).As well as being a psych major in college(trying to figure out what was "wrong" with me,since no counselor seemed to know)Just wanted to relay my own experience with the psychiatric community.....they have a lot of aspie traits....1)they love to label things and put them in neat little boxs....2)If they dont fit in the boxs,they get angry and try and not to see the parts that dont fit.....3)they have a lot of black and white thinking........4)they cant seem to understand that JUST because someone experiences something they dont(sensory issues),that the person is not faking or motivated by some psychological flaw but actually experiencing differently4)change scares them.....they fight all new information and fear cognitive dissidence if the information contradicts their previously held beliefs.......5)If they actually decide that "X" is the problem,they try and make everything fit X,instead of understanding that X does not rule out Y and Z also being at issue.#5 is one of the largest flaws in logic I see in psychology and should never be tolerated in a scientific mind.

When I was seeking treatment for depression, it was assumed that many of my aspie traits(there was no knowledge of AS at the time 1980-1993)where because I was an "abandoned child" in foster care from 2-5,very important developmental years.
My later addiction was blamed on some "sexual suppressed memories of abuse"(I still have no memories of this fictitious abuse but have plenty of actual abuse by guys taking advantage of my aspie naivety and desire to be loved/excepted as well as date rapes while passed out.)Suppressed sexual abuse was "all the rage".It was used to explain every personality anomaly......what a great invention.......X is caused by a memory that can never be proved (or disproved)because it is suppressed.(I wont even go into the practice of planting such memories through hypnosis.....eeeek).

My point in the above is that there are some real "nuts" in the psych profession(not all but many)There is often a lack of scientific rigidity in the process that can make it appear closer to "voodoo" then actual science(maybe why they call them "head shrinkers"?)Some of your sons may be influenced by his sexual abuse....that doesnt "rule-out" other factors of equal importance...sensory issues,learning problems(I have a form of dylexia inspite of being avid reader),aspie traits which are nuorological,depression that could be chemical and life experience induced(I have a family of depressives and bi-polars,social phobics,even though I am the only one with DX of AS)Humans are complex.....the psych profession can be like the five blind men trying to describe an elephant by examining one part of the animal(they guy feeling the trunk,thought the animal was a snake)A psych,untrained in "aspie"....will likely focus on "one part" and end up with a faulty conclussion.My personal experience was that the whole process was not only "not helpful"....it was destructive.My reality was constantly being negated by my counslers,as pathological or attention seeking.I was told that "You are detached from your feelings","over intellectualizing","black and white thinker","over sensitive to your environment","obsessive","attachment disorder"etc.All true but quit a different "treatment" if you realize that these "traits" are caused by neurological difference not psychological reaons.

Talking about bad things that happened to me did not "cure me".It made me focus on negative things and kept me stuck in a self-concept of victim and made me more depressed.The only effective therepy I had was Rational Emotive Therapy...someone who questioned the validity of my belief system and allowed me to make concrete changes in behavior that was counter-productive to my mental health.Learning to except that I was "different" and that that was OK,was also helpful.

I am sorry that this is so long.I really want you to understand that your son being "treated" by someone with experience and understanding of AS is crucial to his life.I hate to see another individual wasting years and money "treating an ulcer with chemo".It not only wont work,it's harmful.I am really glad you can see the positives in your son.That is invaluable.If my parents had not treated me as "defective" but having some methods of coping that were ineffective,my life might have had a much different outcome.If I had known that I wasnt alone in my skewed experience of life,I might not have spent so many years planning and fantasizing about my own death.

Krex, thanks for your words of wisdom. I know of what you speak when it comes to quacky shrinks. I've been there, done that. I've gone through all of them in the town I live in (and I don't live in a small town!) I was blessed, or maybe cursed, however you want to look at it, to have my son initially see a woman that was as brilliant as she was warm and loving. She was an incredible psychiatrist that never tried to make my son fit her mold or anyone elses mold for that fact, but to understand him. With that being said, when she moved away, I could not find another psychiatrist that even came close to her abilities...until now.

The psychiatrist that I spoke of in an earlier post is well versed in Autism and Asperger's. He approached my son with the fact that he had Asperger's, it was what made him feel different from everyone else and he should use the difference to his advantage. There was not one negative word out of his mouth. I loved it! He encouraged me to educate myself on Asperger's and gave me a catalog of books to purchase and read, which I did.

One of them was a book written by a young man in England. I found it fascinating, as this young man was articulate in explaining his experiences and feelings to such a degree that it gave me an understanding of his experiences in his young life with Asperger's. The dr. encouraged my son to read the book as well. It's still sitting on his headboard, unread. I guess if I had told him that the book was a sci-fi fantasy, it would have devoured it in about 20 minutes. He reads very quickly, becomes absorbed in his books and his comprehension is unbelievable.

I guess one of the big reasons I liked this recent psych is just you stated, he didn't try to put my son in those boxes as most do. He said that everyone is different and no person or disorder is the same. He told me that some things work for some people and not for others. He said we'd just have to experiment and see what works best for him. He recommended learning additional coping skills as well as a cocktail for his depression, PTSD, anxiety. I don't know if Andrew will be willing to take more meds or not. At 17, I can't force him. I hope he'll be willing to try to make his life more functional and less stressful.

My point is, I agree with you. Prior to his Asperger's dx, I was trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Nothing worked, no therapies worked, no drugs worked (with the exception of anti-depressants, Concerta for focus and Serzone, which is no longer available). He's been on every psychotropic out there and at one time in his life, he needed it. But not now.

I also agree that with you that to some degree, I think that he's stuck in the "victIm" mode. I don't know how to help him discard that. Do you think that's something he'll need to decide for himself and I'll just need to sit back and let him learn that lesson for himself, no matter how much it hurts?

And don't apologize for those long posts, boy do I ever learn from them! Thanks so much!

I think you need to sit him down and tell him what you have learned. He needs to hear that he is not "crazy" and that those of us like him have made it out alive. That we are not victims, but we live in control of our own lives and that we are happy with who we are. That is what he needs to hear. He needs to know that while his way of thinking doesn't take the normal routes, that he can learn coping mechanisms and mimick behaviors to get by where he needs to so he can enjoy the things he loves. Most of all you need to tell him that you finally understand that his brain is just different, but that's okay. You need to tell him that he doesn't have to be like everyone else and you love the fact that he is not. You need to tell him that is what makes him unique and wonderful to you. Someone who could never be replaced by a so-called "normal" person.

He devours sci-fi because when you feel like an alien dropped off on earth, sci-fi becomes one of the few genres that feels like home. So you need to get in there and convince him that you are glad the aliens decided to visit you.


That is what he needs to hear.

SteveK,
On milestones, he generally exceeded them all. The only thing he did that was unusual (in comparison to my other two) was he didn't babble like they did. When he started to speak, he spoke in full sentences. He has always had a wonderful command of the English language and constantly and consistently says very profound things.

As far as what you say about depression, I think you nailed it. He has been so depressed for so long, how would I know he had any interests because he's too depressed to pursue them!

Krex, I love Dr. Suess. I guess it shows!

Thank you both for your very insightful comments.