when you point out nt flaws

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The answer to your first question is because evil comes from ignorance and some forms of ignorance comes from the set of unknown, unknowns. The answer to your second question is no, it is not true that a cigar can sometimes be a cigar. It is true that a cigar is always a cigar because your question is a tautology.

Power (what you call dominance) is a decisive factor anyway - neither of you would've said what you two said if the receiver was her boss in a bad economy and she was over 50 and of poor means.

I don't think much of that "sandwich" method myself - maybe it was the people using it I may be a bit jaded, but when someone who normally won't give me the time of day gives me a sacharine smile and Starts the conversation with " Lukewarm begrudging compliment BUT....." I'd rather they'd just come out and say it. I'm not suggesting you can't be nice about it, but faking a compliment you don't feel is not going to indear me.

But your example doesn't contradict what I wrote. There really is a point of dominance to that situation, because when you point out something in another person that annoys you, you are being dominant over that person, in the sense that you are "bossing" her to stop her behaviour - or at least telling her what it "right". Between friends this could be for her own best, and hence no problem (in your case actually seemingly a good thing), but it could be in situations where "strangers" are forced to work together (at a job or school for instance).

But the reason you don't think there is an aspect of "dominance" to the situation is because you both value the group (i.e. your mutual friendship) enough to not consider the dominance a problem. As I wrote:



and in your case you do value the group enough. But at a job or at a school with strangers it is very possible you do not value the group enough to want to put up with being bullied (i.e. having pointed out flaws).

So in your case, you can be dominant over each other without any problem, because of the fact that you are friends. You value the group. But in settings where socialization is forced, you might not value the group in the same way and hence does not want to put up with having things pointed out because of their sick desire to dominate you.

That's exactly what happened to me today. I would have posted this in the thread about autism stereotypes about intelligence thread but since the thread apparently dissapeared out of existence but THIS THREAD COMES TO SAVE THE DAYYYYYYYYYYYY
Anyway, at school I got pushed into some office and then they kept saying that I could do the whole worksheet in a splitsecond, and then when I came to lunch, I got pushed in the office again because I didn't try hard enough [I was trying so hard my finger was hurting so bad I thought that it was internally bleeding] and then everyone else got to go on the computers and play flash games. And then, I pointed this out, they gave me a detention.
[clapping] Wow. Wow. Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

I can't take criticism very well at all. But most people are hypocrites when it comes to criticism, as nobody really likes being criticised but would criticise others if they wanted to. I suppose I'm not much different. After all, we all are only human.

I am only gonna answer this part right now, I have things to do, but I'll come back and address the other part of your post. Somebody pointing out a flaw is NOT being bullied! It could be rude, but it's not bullying. It would be bullying if they saw you were uncomfortable with it and kept on teasing you about the flaw, or had more people point it out to you, or pointed out maybe a flaw a day with an attitude of "Hey, let's f**k with this guy!".

While bullying is always a rude thing to do, not all rude things done are bullying. Just because you feel that it's bullying doesn't make it bullying. Some people feel bullied when a stranger speaks to them for Christ's sakes, that doesn't make saying hello to somebody you don't know "bullying".

Again, it's the victim card. It's also a catch 22. If no one wants to hang around you or doesn't like you because of certain flaws you have that you may not even be aware of, then that's bullying by exclusion. If someone tells you about the flaws you have that makes people not want to hang around with you, in hopes that maybe you didn't know you were doing them and might try to stop doing them, that's bullying. Neither one is bullying. Bullying is not just simply doing something that upsets the person who feels they are the weaker person in the situation.

Yelling "bully" over something that isn't bullying never won anyone any respect, and respect is the key to not feeling like a victim, not acceptance. Acceptance implies pity, respect does not. I'll take respect any day over acceptance.

I have done the same with many members of my family. I was only offering my observations and insight as a way to make a point of how I feel when they do the same thing to me in front of (and behind) me. Of course it gets me treated poorly and yelled at every single time that I do it. Part of the problem that I see is this: They feel that it is okay for them to point out our flaws because they feel that they are superior somehow, but that it is a big "no-no" for us to do the same because there is (as one person told me) nothing "wrong" with them.

Hi OliveOilMom.

I understand your perspective on this. But the part you bolded is taken out of context. I wrote:



I only think pointing out flaws in others can be bullying if you do not value the group you are a part of enough. As long as you value the group enough there is nothing called bullying, only finding your place in the hierarchy!!

So to make myself clear:

Case 1: You value the group higher than your individuality. Someone in the group points out one of your flaws in a helpful manner = not bullying.

Case 2: You value the group higher than your individuality. Someone in the group points out one of your flaws in a teasing manner = not bullying, but teasing (a way of establishing a hierarchy/group dynamics between close people who truly want the best for each other).

Case 3: You value your individuality higher than the group (perhaps as a result of that group treating you poorly because they consider you low in the social hierarchy, so they think that treatment is most appropriate, perhaps for other reasons). Someone in the group points out one of your flaws in a helpful manner = (most often) not bullying.

Case 4: You value your individuality higher than the group (perhaps as a result of that group treating you poorly because they consider you low in the social hierarchy, so they think that treatment is most appropriate, perhaps for other reasons). Someone in the group points out one of your flaws in a teasing manner = bullying.


I was referring to Case 4. But it is unlikely for NTs to ever (?) consider Case 4 bullying because they never (because of their innate pack mentality) truly value their individuality higher than the group/pack. To most NTs being excluded from the group unconsciously equals death as it does for wolves in a pack out in the wild. This is often not the case for people with AS. For them being "teased" in a group unconsciously equals death as it does for felines in the wild. They have no innate pack mentality, so being bullied/teased/dominated in a group is like putting them in a cage. They have no other but themselves to rely on, so being told what to do and not to do means their chances of survival becomes very limited.


Being "teased" in a group feels just as bad to a person with AS, as being excluded from/not accepted by the "good company" (i.e. the people close to you that you emotionally depend on) does to you.

It is important to understand that NTs and people with AS are fundamentally different social-wise. You can see just how different when you observe the differences between the social behaviours of dogs and cats.

I've learned to not tell anyone they're wrong. Their response disgusts me. I thought I was being helpful. I mean if I thought 2+2=5, I'd be grateful someone told me it equals 4. But I'm logical and enjoy growing and learning.

So part of being human is being angry when someone points out you're wrong? .
If I'm wrong, I can take criticism. And I can't fathom getting angry at someone for telling me I'm wrong. There are definitely people who become furious from being proven wrong or told the truth. How animalistic.

I laughed out loud.

Those nts are such morons.

Getting back to the original example of a mother criticizing a son: Mothers are hard-wired to be autocrats. Infant and child care requires fast, automatic responses, where she is in charge of people who are a danger to themselves and others. Because she has to multi-task and has no time for careful fact-finding, she expects to be treated as infallible even after changing her mind. Those who can think better for themselves are expected to leave the nest, at least long enough to bring back some supplies.

...because they don't like being criticised in the nastiest possible manner WHILE they're trying to concentrate on something else?

Yeah. NTs be crazy.

Totally crazy. And also totally not fellow human beings who deserve respect.
/sarcasm

Come on, guys. NTs are people, too. When a particular NT does something jerkish or annoying, it's because that particular person decided to do that thing. Don't let yourself think, "He did that because NTs are annoying jerks." How in the world could you make a single statement like that about every neurotypical person, ever? There's no logic in that. There are all different kinds of NTs, just like there are all different kinds of autistics. We don't like it when they think we're all exactly like Rain Man, do we?

Agreed. There are all kinds of NTs. Some are very caring and loving. It all depends on the individual.

I think what frustrates many autistics is that most NTs (because of their innate pack mentality) consider people to be of different value. A popular handsome guy is worth more than an unpopular, not handome guy, so the former should be treated much better than the latter. This is what pack mentality is about. The former should be dominant, while the latter should be submissive. And because of autistics lack of natural communication and social skills (because we don't have an innate pack mentality, we were not designed to live in packs), we are naturally getting towards the bottom in the social hierarchy. And to many NTs this means we should be submissive to them, which means they should be allowed to tease us without us being allowed to tease back. Through many years of experiencing this, it is natural many autistics can have a difficult relationship with the "NT-population" in general.

I think you may be right (or mostly, at least). This also, sadly, exemplifies in a short statement what is so difficult about being a mother for me.


I do get the idea that the OP's issue has more to do with a parent/child relationship than ASD/NT. And, while parent/child relationships can be similar to other social structures, they are inherently different than same age peer relationships.

Qawer, I found your insight interesting to think about. It helps me understand my reactions better. I seem to sometimes take teasing from loved ones as positive and sometimes as negative (often depends on how depressed I am). I don't tend to view the "case 4" scenarios you mention as bullying (I tend to detest the word for various reasons), but as me being seen as everyone's "pet" and not an equal. That is probably what you are describing.

In general, I like it when people point out my flaws. (Well, in the long run. It is sometimes painful, but I generally thank the person immediately.). However, I always take it best when it is just given to me frankly. Teasing may sometimes feel like that "case 4" scenario even if it was well-intentioned. Criticism sandwiches seem distracting and I get confused as to what the message was.

I may be more apt to avoid criticism sandwiches because I dislike them. I generally have stopped pointing out flaws in others unless it is urgently important or if I know the other person would like to know. I've had so many experiences where the receiving person simply did not see what I saw enough that I've stopped trying to show it.