Where do you draw the line?

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ohhh Theory of Mind (or TOM), as I understand it, is the ablity to guess others states of mind, and the appreciation of the difference in thinking between people. There's a thing called "The Sally_Ann Test" which is a little 'comprehension' story, which autistics often get wrong, and this is used to illustrate the differences in thinking between autistics and NTs.

Essentially, I think it gives people the ability to anticpate/understand deceit, or to grasp people's moods, which are great assets is socialising. You could call it 'mind-reading', wheras we are often mind-blind. Lack of TOM seems to give the 'I am YOU', 'everyone is me' thinking that is common in autistics, which makes it hard for us to see that others have their own separate interests and viewpoints - it also makes us easy to deceive.

Here's something a bit more academic about it, hope it's not too dense, but it does contain the 'sally-ann' test.

I should add that it's a disputed concept, like a lot of things about autism.

Actually its PDD-NOS I believe.

It stands for Pervasive Developmental Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified.

PDDs are disorders which has a cluster of symptoms that affect a wide area of functioning. Examples of this include Asperger's syndrome, Tourettes Syndrome and Autism.

PDD-NOS is a given diagnosis when an individual does not fall into any of the predefined PDD categories, but it is still clear that he/she has what can be considered a PDD. In sother words, it is a psychiatrist's way of saying "we don't know what he should be classified as so we will just put him here."

From Ghosthunter, "here are some
academic texts".......

Characteristics of Asperger’s Syndrome:

* May move into the personal space of others,
not recognizing body language, facial and verbal
cues that he/she has transgressed
* May not make direct eye contact
* Lack of emotional reciprocity or empathy
* Rigid and inflexible adherence to specific routines or rituals
* Stereotyped and repetitive motor movements
* Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
* Friends and new acquaintances may be acknowledged with tight and enthusiastic hugs instead of formal greetings like “Hi, how are you?”
* May begin to talk about the latest topic of concern which is of interest only to themselves (e.g., train schedules), may be age inappropriate or boring but the person does not pick up on looks of disinterest or snickers from the group.
* Speech and language peculiarities such as:  stilted and formal language, voice too loud or monotone or hyperverbal.
* Hypersensitivity to noises or smells
* Cognitive abilities which are average or above average (They are often known as “little professors”)
* Difficulties with subjects that require inferential reasoning, abstract concepts, problem solving, extensive calculations or social judgements.
* Fine motor problems which lead to poor penmanship and low writing motivation
* Gross motor clumsiness which leads to poor skills in competitive sports and physical activities
* Depression, frequent school absences, low school motivation due to being socially vulnerable and easy targets for teasing and bullying

with Autism Spectrum Disorder

 Listed below are behaviors that a child on the Autistic Spectrum might encounter  a daily basis.  Autistic spectrum disorder includes students with conditions such as autism, Pervasive developmental disorder, and Aspergers syndrome.
 
 

Social Interactions:
- wanting to be left alone at times
- trouble with back and forth social interactions
- little sense of other people’s boundaries
- inappropriate use of eye contact, avoidance or extended staring
- poor use of nonverbal gestures
- not accepting hugging, cuddling or touching unless self initiated
 

Interest and Activities:
- repeatedly watching videos or video segments
- lining up and or/ ordering objects
- strong attachment to inanimate objects
- pacing or running back and forth, round and round
- very sensitive to sounds
- resisting change
- difficulty waiting
- history of eating  problems
- defensive to touch which isn’t self initiated
- lack of fear or real danger
 

Qualitative Impairments in Communication:
- problem with getting the order of words in sentences correct
- problem understanding jokes
- problems answering questions
- problems with reciprocal conversations
- problems using speed, tone and volume appropriately
- difficulty understanding abstract concepts
 

Learning Characteristics:
- well developed long term memory
- good visual skills
- hyperactivity
- delayed response time
- needs help to problem solve
- short attention span to some activities and not others
- problems organizing
 

Observable Problems Behaviors:
- aggression- biting, hitting, kicking, pinching
- temper tantrums
- toileting problems
- low motivation
 

Motor Problems:
- clumsiness
- balance
- stiffness
- tired easily
- motor planning- can’t make body do what it needs to do
 
 

Environmental Challenges that Lower Ability
to Function Competently

Personal
- not being understood
- not understanding
- not having choices
- making a mistake
- being touched

Major Changes:
- alterations in school, work, home, community
- time changes
- staff or teacher absent
- cancellation of event or activity
- having to wait too long

Environmental Confusion:
- crowds
- noise
- not having enough space
- losing things of value
- surrounded by too much movement
- surrounded by too much visual stimuli

Relationships:
- being corrected
- being denied
- being late
- being ignored
- being left out
- being teased
- being scolded
 
 

Sensory Challenges

Sound/ Auditory:
- reacts to unexpected sound
- fears some noises
- making self induced noises
- confused about direction of sound
- distracted by certain sounds

Sight/Vision:
- has been diagnosed as having a visual problem
- is sensitive to light
- has difficulty tracking
- upset by things looking different
- closely examines objects or hands

Smell/Olfactory:
- sensitive to smells
- explores environment by smelling
- reacts strongly to some smells
- ignores strong odors

Touch/Tactile:
- defensive about being touched
- prefers deep touching rather than soft
- dislikes feel of certain clothing
- over or under dresses for temperature
- upset by sticky, gooey hands

Taste:
- has an eating problem
- dislikes certain textures or foods
- tastes non-edibles

Movement/Vestibular:
- seems fearful in space
- arches back when held or moved
- likes rocking, swinging, spinning
- avoids balancing activities

Perceptual/Perceptual Motor:
- has difficulty with timeperception
- problems with use of some tools
- difficulty with body in space
- relies on knowing location of furniture
 
 

Social Skills which may be Personal Challenges

Personal Management/Self Control:
-    waiting
- finishing work
- taking care of belongings
- turning in assignments on time
- changing activities
- accepting correction

Reciprocal Interactions:
- imitating
- sharing
- taking turns
- offering help, comfort
- inviting others to join
- asking for a favor
- letting someone know you are hurt or sick

Reciprocating Social Interactions Appropriately:
- listening
- commenting on a topic
- answering questions
- accepting help
- responding to teasing
- making a choice
- giving eye contact appropriately

Manner of Interaction:
- being polite
- being kind
- being considerate
- being honest
- not walking away when someone is talking

Abstract Social Concepts:
- being good
- timing
- fairness
- friendship
- caring
- lying
- humor

Group Behaviors:
- come when called to a group
- stay in certain places
- participate with group
- follow group rules
- winning and losing
- pick up, clean up, straighten up
 
 

There is a more extensive list and manual with other information.  If interested please contact:
Anne Moll
Kentucky Department of Education
17th Floor CPT
500 Mero Street
Frankfort, KY 40601
(502) 564-2672
You can visit their website at http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/IEP ... Forms.html
 
Diagnostic Criteria For 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity
B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia

I do not know if I have Theory of Mind or not. I have done a lot of reading on the subject, but I have a difficult time applying the concept to myself.

Theory of Mind also refers to one's ability to reflect upon one's own thoughts and emotions. I think I have trouble with the emotional aspect of ToM, but not as much with the intellectual aspect. I generally do not realize my emotions until they have reached the breaking point, or until someone else suggests to me what I might be feeling. For example, last night after class, I became incredibly overwhelmed with a feeling of anger. I am unsure why, and the entire time, I just wanted to hit something. I think it may be the result of the stress I have been facing. All of a sudden, I had an overwhelming urge to cry. I did, a little bit, and this helped somewhat with what I had originally percieved to be anger, though now I am really not sure what I was feeling.

As for other people, I am aware that others are not me. They have their own thoughts and motivations. I tend to think like an analyst, observing their actions and attempting to discern why they behave in certain ways. I believe this is similar to what NTs do, as well.

At the same time, I have a difficult time inferring what people mean if they are not completely clear. I have had trouble with teachers like this, where the entire class besides myself seems to know what is going on or what we are supposed to do. Sarcasm also invariably escapes me, unless I can determine logically that what the person is saying is not possible, or highly unlikely. Deciet also tends to slip my notice, unless I know a person very very well, and I can percieve that their behavior is different from their normal way of acting.

Guessing other people's states of mind and seeing their points of view has always been something that comes very easily to me. I'm pretty certain now that I'm in the PDD-NOS range instead of AS. Thanks again Sean, this had been puzzling me for a while now!

I don't think that many WrongPlanet members would fail the Sally-Ann test. Even if one is mindblind, the correct answer can be deduced using trivial logic. One study (that we discussed here a couple of months ago) suggested that these individuals who fail Sally-Ann test usually also do poorly at tests requiring logical reasoning. Anyway, the test was designed for children of mental age that we do not rather see among our members.

My own mind is pretty well described by what Jetson wrote. I feel like the only sentient being in the universe, and when I was younger, I seriously believed it was so. Of course I understand that other people think too, but this is a result of my logic, and when I try to imagine these thoughts, I often make a mistake assuming that other people's mental processes do not differ from mine. Please note that I said "mental processes", not thoughts or knowledge. I am very well aware that other people do not share my exact thoughts before I communicate them, but when I do so, I expect people to always agree with me. Furthermore I feel a communication barrier between me and other people. Because of that I usually carefully explain everything to my interlocutor, so that no details are left undefined. (This at times leads to people getting angry and accusing me of "thinking that they are stupid".) But I also have a tendency of thinking aloud and go to the other extreme by verbalizing streams of consciousness. This makes people say that they can't figure out what I am talking about.

Hi ghotistix.

I'm somewhat in the same proverbial 'boat' as you and some of the others here who it concerns. This mind-blindness and no common-sense business doesn’t seem to affect me that much from how I perceive it; only in some social situations when I’m somewhat lost: but day-to-day stuff I’m somewhat feel more advanced that most NT’s; but this is probably down to logic. I also have no major issues with employment and education: I’m somewhat socially withdrawn and just get on with it, which doesn’t pose many difficulties. But still I have problems with social interaction, some communication issues, have narrow interests, like sameness and routine and have some sensory issues etc…..

So what are peoples thought’s, is this AS, PDD-NOS, or just a shy nerd?

In my opinion, the key part of any diagnosis is clinically significant impairment. Meaning, it seriously disrupts your life to the point that you cannot maintain your happiness or achieve your goals. Either that, or you are exhausting yourself keeping up and are in real danger of burnout or breakdown. If autism is a spectrum, it's a spectrum that extends into what we call normalcy, and even beyond that into the realm of William's Syndrome (which is in many ways the opposite of autism). Many nerds show "aspie tendencies" but it could also be said that many aspies show "nerd tendencies" - it's just a matter of overlapping definitions. Just like much of the population shows borderline personality tendencies, but not to the point where it is seriously dragging down their lives.

I’ve read plenty of articles on Theory of Mind and am still confused. There are many mental behaviors of mine that I now call into question after learning about this subject.

The problem I have that is most apparently a Theory of Mind deficit relates to predicting other’s thoughts and actions. Throughout my adult life, (I have yet to ponder whether I did this as a child) in personal situations, I have consistently failed to predict how my words and actions affect others. It is only very recently and after much introspection have I concluded that in the past, I have been assigning my own mental state to others. Of course, this has led to many misunderstandings and even disastrous consequences.

I have always lived with the assumption that everyone around me knows what I am thinking. I have assumed that my family and friends know what I am feeling, what my opinions are, what my goals are, what my limitations are, what my worst fears are, and so on. This is almost an unconscious assumption and something that doesn’t hold up to conscious inspection. However, this underlying belief remains even after logical reasoning should have eliminated the behavior. This problem extends into many areas, causing me to react inappropriately when things are misunderstood. When a misunderstanding occurs, even over simple things, my first reaction is incredulity. How could this person not know?

In past relationships I have had the idea that my partner automatically knows my feelings and thoughts. In my last relationship, I had extremely strong feelings for my partner and literally believed we would be together forever. Did I ever tell her this? No, I just assumed that she understood that was the way I felt. I was very confused. On one hand, I had a difficulty with empathy, never realizing when she required emotional support. On the other, I felt that she possessed total empathy for me, even extending to reading my thoughts.

Obviously, something is wrong with the way I think of others mental and emotional states. However, I believe I am beginning to understand what is wrong so I can change for the better. Whether my problems outlined above are Theory of Mind deficits or not is up to question.