Uta Frith people with ASD can't mentalize ?

Post Reply New Topic

As an ambassador for the National Autistic Society, my main role is to highlight the enormously rich diversity of the autistic spectrum and to challenge all stereotypes.

Any comments such as people with autism cannot mentalize crys out to be challenged. Classic autistic, sure, many here with AS, maybe, BUT making blanket statements such as all is not true, not helpful and inaccurate.

The extreme male brain model contributes much to this, 'one size fits all' approach to people with ASD's

I know many in the spectrum who are empathic counsellors, empathic mothers, dancers, footballers, lovers (& yes, whose hearts ache when they are apart from each other) but we rarely see such individuals in the media.

Many specialists who have made a name for themselves in Autism have contributed enormously to the wellbeing of many, I can't deny this. However, it seems very much the case that it is not just us in the autistic spectrum that is challenged in seeing the whole picture.

To truly accept difference is a wonderful human gift. The BBC and those specialising in the field of autism seem to be as prone
to Sameness and routine as most of us.

Guess we're all human after all.

Would this statement be correct? "People with autism have difficulty with mentalization."

In my view that would be very accurate

The media love extreme cases, it makes for a great story. Some in the spectrum are accurately diagnosed as having ASD but are just not that emotionally as inept as they are made out to be.

Many in the autistic spectrum live very normal lives. Many take care of their 'neuro typical' relatives who are aged or vulnerable.

I know people in the autistic spectrum who would be considered 'mild' mild enough to not be picked out as different, yet would be 'picked' upon by
perspective partners, who would inaccurately assume their date or possible partner is totally inept in understanding their emotional needs, simply because they have Googled autism and seen the stereotype portrayed.

Not all different from a perspective partner who was contemplating dating a a woman from southern Italy and who consequentially Googled up Neapolitans
and then expecting her to be passionate, antagonistic and a raving sex machine.

I don't know about you but I find it terribly difficult to determine someone elses mental state.
Obviously I know my own....

I have a very poor imagination as well, I find it virtually impossible to picture something in my head.
Even looking at a piece of paper knowing what I want to draw, I can't imagine it at all or it's a very fuzzy picture in my mind that doesn't help me one bit.

I guess I think in words and not pictures is it normal? I don't know. but I doubt it.

Maybe it's just because I'm a 100% logical thinker?

Perhaps it might be true to say that visual thinkers within the A spectrum have an advantage in being more imaginative. Also, those who are more right brain dominant have much less difficulty with respect to intuition and understanding the emotional world of others.

I am verbal, visual and also kinesthetic in how I make sense and grasp reality.

Its a shame you feel that way. I personally thought it was the most well balanced, complex and comprehensive documentary on autism I have ever seen, I was really impressed.

I thought the show went a long way in busting a lot of stereotypes:
You had the autistic maths genius who went to a normal school and seemed to have a good banter with his classmates.
You had the ASD diagnosed woman who made a lot of facial expressions when talking, and showed good tone of voice.
You had the Aspergers guy who could take part in an improvisation with his classmates and go along with the jokes.
They also showed what classic severe autism was like.
I think its hard to be able to show what a broad range the spectrum is in a one hour show, and manage to present the people as individuals rather than a textbook of symptoms, but they did it extremely well.

Re mentalizing: I was really interested in the part with the animations of the triangles. In a way it showed that the autistic people did have a reasonable theory of mind. I.e. the most of the autistics didn't just see the triangles as geometric shapes floating in space, they told a story about the triangles just as everyone else did. They did assign intentions and behaviours to the shapes! Its just the story they told was weird and a bit off.

I never got the impression from the programme that Uta Frith was making the statement that all autistic people are completely incapable of metalizing/a theory of mind. IMO the facts in the programme werent presented in a black and white way like that.

Funny, I picked up on that phrase as well. I didn't like the term mentalization, but I think that she was at that point in the documentary trying to explain the process of interacting with other people and why autistic children find it difficult. It is hard to explain.

I think it was more about young children, but maybe that is because I was bad at theory of mind through my childhood and adolescence. I have developed better theory of mind as I've got older and look back on my teens and wonder how I had the audacity to say the things I did to other people. I didn't realize that they just didn't see things my way.

I would love to see a similar program that explains how NT brains work.

That triangle cartoon was fascinating. I understood the first one, but like one of the autistic participants I thought that the big triangle was trapped in a box and the little triangle was trying to find a way in. I don't know if I would have worked it out if the voiceover hadn't revealed the story so soon.

I really related to what the motivational speaker said about how she feels about meeting people. I can give a presentation with confidence as well, but I hate the stress of two way conversation. I never know if I am responding appropriately and I can never figure out where the conversation is going.

And I do wonder if I actually miss people. I like my own space, but I also like it when the people I love are around. I like what they say. I don't think I could fall for a guy who I didn't enjoy listening to. It worries me that I am maybe attracted to men who entertain me. I think that might be a bad thing. Not sure.

Hi Froxfield

It's not really a shame because I valued much of the film. Just wish Uta made clear that the autistic spectrum is a much more broader spectrum and consequently this means people will have varying degrees of difficulty with respect to ToM.

To say 'WE' can't mentalize is insulting to many people and also untrue. Sometimes these things come out wrong when being interviewed. The amount of times I have regretted things I've said in front of the camera makes me cringe just to think about it.

I sometimes wish I had no ability to mentalize. I wouldn't be as bothered by people who's motives and beliefs clearly differ from my own.

I really liked the overall balance of the show...but I did get the feeling during the talk near the end which included Uta talking about herself, that Uta wanted a clear line where Autism stops. Coming from a family with varying traits and degrees of traits that part made me feel uncomfortable. It seemed a little at odds with SBC's bit.

does anyone know where to find the horizon programme on this?
have not been on the net for days and have not been watching tv so have missed out on it.

under the OP definition,am not able to mentalize;either own or someone elses and get a lot of support to understand own mental state as possible.

its unfair to complain of generalizing whilst saying classic autism automaticaly means a person cant mentalize,there are plenty of high functioning classic autistics who coud have the capacity for it.



that is what has happened with all bbc docs supposedly based on the autism spectrum for many years now,am LFA and female and the old national autistic society staff team of mine were approached by the BBC [for bbc three] over four years back and asked if self/KoR coud be followed in a documentary they were going to be making about males and females across the whole spectrum;eighteen to twenty five year olds,they agreed and had also agreed to do it however by the time it got near the start of production the film team were told their funding had been canceled;they altered their theme to; all males, and high functioning autism only but they still refered to it as representative of the whole spectrum.
was gutted as it was part of their whole autism month and not one programme featured a low functioning autistic.

It's still on iPlayer until next Thursday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... th_Autism/

Well, if you want my opinion, MOST PEOPLE aren't that good at mentalizing/ ToM/ whatever.

Seriously. People can, for the most part, only accurately understand the mental state of someone who thinks and feels and operates like themselves, or someone that they know very, very well.

I know plenty of people who I can understand where they're coming from. I know, less well, plenty of people for whom I have to make assumptions and then be very reserved and very careful with them until I gather more information.

I also know PLENTY of people, obviously NT very socially skillful people, who don't understand me (or a lot of other people) at all.

The only reason they are thought of as being skilled at doing this, and we are not, is that there are a lot more of them (44 of them to every 1 of us, at last and most radical count) and they are, therefore, statistically more likely to encounter someone who thinks and feels more or less like they do.

It actually does seem that NTs are good at mentalizing, Francesca Happe mentions that NT children even from a young age, as young as 4, can pass theory of mind tests very well.

Mentalization is not perfect in neurotypicals.

Example: people assume that other people believe what they say, without proof