Human nature
As opposed to: what?
What would you have folks think about?
Special interests, of course!
Most care about fitting in, most want wealth and love, both require you to fit in...
Most people want acceptance and survival..
You can have those things without this belief in worth/worthless, perfect/imperfect etc. In fact I would say you are more likely to have those things without those concepts because people would be more accepting.
It is such beliefs that actually stop you from being accepted....
People don't think you worthy enough or perfect enough so they reject you and you spend a lifetime either feeling you are worthless or trying to make yourself more worthy in order to live up to others expectations and fit in...
What if those concepts didn't exist in the first place.
If fitting in was about finding people whom you were compatible with instead. What if no one was worthless or imperfect becuase such concepts didn't exist (which they don't outside of human belief systems). You can't hate yourself for being imperfect if there is no such thing as imperfection....
Just as you can't hate yourself for not living up to any expectations of yourself if you don't have any. Personally I have curiosities instead. For example when it comes to learning to play piano, rather than having expectations of my skill level, I am curious about what I am and am not capable of. I learn without self judgement (the only kind of thing I judge is what i need to spend extra time practicing for example).
It's strange that in order to fit in society chooses a belief system that actually out casts people more than anything.
Odd.
PN perfection doesn't exist either. If imperfection doesn't exist neither does perfection as you can't have one without the other. Perfection is an ideal that people get stuck in their mind, but that is all it is, I doubt there is any such thing as perfection in objective reality.
I think a big part is the way western society is going. People are fed so much garbage in the media, it colours their perception of how the world is : all reality TV, fast cars, models, you get the picture. I read an article that people in Asian countries are now experiencing greater levels of depression than ever before because of exposure to western media. They not only are seeing all they are "missing out on", they are adopting the (in my opinion) narrow shallow attitudes to success that is prevalent in western society. A generation ago, Okinawans were the healthiest peopl on the planet: now the youth think happiness is found in a Big Mac; and the rest is history.
Sorry, I'm ranting.
It would be good if people would stop measuring their lives by things that really don't matter.
Sorry, I'm ranting.
It would be good if people would stop measuring their lives by things that really don't matter.
the way I see is not that modern society is going downhill because of the exposure of everything people are missing out. The cars, models etc are only our society's way of social power and hierarchy. That is, not different from other societies, just the way we manifest it. So the desire to have those things aka. Getting up in the hierarchy and having prestige is not a narrow minded attitude but average human attitude. The way it is manifested is what changes depending on the society along with the values. So it has actually always been like that, except for a few more equalitarian societies (but even still).
a cultural difference important to the topic in the western world I would say is the individualism and "you can be what you want". Of course this is not true, but even still truer than many other societies where people's hierarchy is determined by being a slave or by which social class they were born in. So in the US people can actually dream and want those things because they are "possible", and this ideology is propagated everywhere with cases of people that got rich from night to day. The economic system is always related to the culture or it doesn't work, so this is actually necessary for our capitalism because people have to feel motivated to go to work, and they are more productive when they can get personal benefit from it or even get rich.
I would have to see the source of this Asian study to see what they are considering as higher depression rates, but I would say traditional east asian societies have a rigid hierarchy. Therefore, the western ideology is telling them otherwise. So there may be a social destabilization and/or cultural de-characterization and/or depression because of what they are missing out because now they are really missing out and not totally attached to the hierarchy. Of course, this is only a superficial analysis I would have to have the data.
I am not attracted to such things as fast cars and all the s**t the media sells. In fact I scrapped my tv license, got rid of many of my dvds (keeping only a few 80s comedies, a few ghosty flicks and some fred astaire and dance movies because they are a few of my favourites and I really want to tap dance like fred (or ginger) did) and refuse to by gossip magazines and newspapers etc (I do purchase some needle craft magazines).
I do not like modern day culture and wish to limit my exposure to it.
I don't care for power, I never did. It is why I don't give a s**t about things like superiority and inferiority. I absolutely do not care one iota for that way of thinking because to me it's nonsense. It's a cultural power trip which encourages the human race to ram its head up it's own god damned arse.
In fact I am concerned that the human race (in general) has rammed its own head so far up its own rectum that it will never get it back out again...
Gone are the days of community, gone are the days when people cared for each other...welcome to the world of selfish.
Power, greed, money...
I don't think it has always been that way. If it had been we might have died out as a species. At some point in our history we shared, we experienced community...no land belonged to anyone, we simply borrowed what we needed from it. There were no riches, there was no money....just tribes of human working together to survive. There was less violence before the rise of farming...farmers died younger than their hunter gatherer ancestors did partly due to increased violence and aggressive acts against each other. Usually as a result of wars and fights over crops if a neighbouring villages crops failed. When we developed civilisation we actually became less civilised...go figure.
Infection also played a roll from living too close to the animals we were farming and poor sanitation.
I don't think society made things better for us....it seems to have screwed us up.
I like to stay as far away from today's society as possible.
It has come up with a few useful mod cons (such as the washing machine and lindt dark chocolate...its not all bad out there) that I like to make use of, other than it doesn't interest me. The only thing I'd like to find is a mate to join me on my travels in life and my more natural way of life.
Last edited by bumble on 08 Apr 2014, 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry, I'm ranting.
It would be good if people would stop measuring their lives by things that really don't matter.
Have you got a link regarding this at all or the name of the magazine (if available in the uk).
I am interested in how modern living and modern wheat or processed food based diets are affecting human physical and mental health....
I do not like modern day culture and wish to limit my exposure to it.
I don't care for power, I never did. It is why I don't give a sh** about things like superiority and inferiority. I absolutely do not care one iota for that way of thinking because to me it's nonsense. It's a cultural power trip which encourages the human race to ram its head up it's own god damned arse.
In fact I am concerned that the human race (in general) has rammed its own head so far up its own rectum that it will never get it back out again...
Gone are the days of community, gone are the days when people cared for each other...welcome to the world of selfish.
Power, greed, money...
I don't think it has always been that way. If it had been we might have died out as a species. At some point in our history we shared, we experienced community...no land belonged to anyone, we simply borrowed what we needed from it. There were no riches, there was no money....just tribes of human working together to survive. There was less violence before the rise of farming...farmers died younger than their hunter gatherer ancestors did partly due to increased violence and aggressive acts against each other. Usually as a result of wars and fights over crops if a neighbouring villages crops failed. When we developed civilisation we actually became less civilised...go figure.
Infection also played a roll from living too close to the animals we were farming and poor sanitation.
I don't think society made things better for us....it seems to have screwed us up.
I like to stay as far away from today's society as possible.
It has come up with a few useful mod cons (such as the washing machine and lindt dark chocolate...its not all bad out there) that I like to make use of, other than it doesn't interest me. The only thing I'd like to find is a mate to join me on my travels in life and my more natural way of life.
such times never existed, people didn't live in communities because they wanted to help each other, but because there weren't many resources and they depended on each other. Most hunter-gatherer societies were actually very violent (500 times more homicides compared to today's developed world. This is another discussion for another time)
I don't care much about those things either but I recognize that wanting to be socially recognized is an essential part of societies. Without it they can't function, I actually can't think of a single example of a society without it. That's because as I said there is a relation between economy and culture. Even in an equalitarian society being recognized is important
For instance, in a semi-nomad agricultural native American tribe, the social ideal for men is the good hunter and producer, and you can see it also in the tribe's prestige and legends. Then even with collective property it works because men want the prestige of bring a good worker so they produce a lot.
in our society the money is the representation of the good producer and the prestige, so that's how it works for us. We need the power and ambition and we need people that want power and monet. Can you see it? Of course societies also have morals and values to regulate behavior but wanting power isn't bad in itself.
that's also why the media propagates it, not only the media but our whole ideology and culture. It is all related.
From what I have read it is suggested that hunger gatherer societies and nomadic tribes are not as violent as they were once thought to be.
It was also once believed that we made war with the Neanderthals but apparently we made nookie with them instead. Most Europeans carry some of their genes. Only those of African decent are unlikely to carry neanderthal DNA.
I need to do more research on this as thus far I focused mostly on nutrition.
Economy would have most likely been unimportant to nomadic tribes who did not stay in one place for a long period of time. They had no banks to put their money in and they probably could not carry a lot of possessions around with them. They most likely just shared what they found free in the land around them. No one owned any land in those days, they may have tried to claim territory I guess but from what I have read thus far they moved around and shared camp sites with others tribes where they exchanged knowledge, goods, tool making techniques and so on.
It doesn't sound very power hungry and war like to me. I think that might be a later feature after we stopped being nomadic and settled down.
There is even some evidence that suggests Homo sapien sapiens taught neanderthals how to make decorative jewelery, a predominantly homo sapien trait but found in neanderthal camps after homo sapiens settled in the areas.
I think it's quite possible that we both made war with and mated with Neanderthals. Evidence exists for both. Both are inevitable.
I think the proportion of Neanderthal genes within European DNA is about 4 percent.
It was stated that red-headed people were most closely related to Neanderthals.
Do you believe Neanderthals were a separate species, or a subspecies of Homo sapiens?
I've always had an idealistic vision of Neanderthals being a subspecies of us--owing to the negative bias exhibited toward Neanderthals before the 1970's or so.
Neanderthals, on average, have been found to have a slightly larger brain capacity (known as cranial capacity) than Homo sapiens sapiens. It is questionable, of course, how much of it was Prefontal. Previously, it was stated that Neanderthal diction consisted solely of grunts. Nowadays, however, apparently because of the proven presence of the hyoid bone, it is stated that Neanderthals were capable of producing at least most the phonemes which modern humans could produce.
This has much to do with human nature; Neanderthals are our ancestors--though perhaps on a parallel branch rather than on a direct line of descent. Almost like a Glacier-climate-adapted uncle of us.
This is a complicated subject and can go in many directions. I don't think I read anything particularly incorrect, but the hard part is determining true cause and effect, separating symptom from disease, and determining the relative weight of all the components.
Its made tougher to solve because humans (and so far as we know at this point, only humans) have in a sense a dual nature. They have their basic nature made up of instinct and adaptations but also a philosophical side that in a way thinks above or in contradiction (sometimes) of natural processes.
For example you might see Lions on a hazy afternoon ignoring the herds of prey that are quite close. But the lions don't attack because they are full, or tired, or it is too hot. They are not sparing the herd because they now think the herd also has the right to life and decided to become Vegans.
Spectulation in some quarters, that humans are in an abnormal stage has exsisted for many decades. And science has looked to nature for models that might provide clues as to what to expect. These are things like when a species no longer has any controlling natural predators, or when food supplies are limitless (or dramatically curtailed). But these are of course of only guesswork and limited value, as humans are not Deer, Rats or Goldfish. And how humans philosophical side might effect outcome has no parallel in nature to consider.
[As far as Neanderthals go, the current prevalent theory is that they and we are separate species but come from a mutual ancestor. The best guess currently for the ancestor is Australopithecus about 3 million years ago. Australopithecus btw, is Latin for 'long-assed-name people']
It was also once believed that we made war with the Neanderthals but apparently we made nookie with them instead. Most Europeans carry some of their genes. Only those of African decent are unlikely to carry neanderthal DNA.
I need to do more research on this as thus far I focused mostly on nutrition.
Economy would have most likely been unimportant to nomadic tribes who did not stay in one place for a long period of time. They had no banks to put their money in and they probably could not carry a lot of possessions around with them. They most likely just shared what they found free in the land around them. No one owned any land in those days, they may have tried to claim territory I guess but from what I have read thus far they moved around and shared camp sites with others tribes where they exchanged knowledge, goods, tool making techniques and so on.
It doesn't sound very power hungry and war like to me. I think that might be a later feature after we stopped being nomadic and settled down.
There is even some evidence that suggests Homo sapien sapiens taught neanderthals how to make decorative jewelery, a predominantly homo sapien trait but found in neanderthal camps after homo sapiens settled in the areas.
by economy I mean gathering of resources and production of products. Not banks and things like that, it would actually be weird to suggest banks in a hunter-gathers society
it seems like you believe before money etc we were good people sharing things with each other and having a good quality of life. Is it so? Something Rousseau-like? I honestly can't see it like that. humans were already selfish, aggressive, oppressive, intolerant. Not only with faults of course, but they did have them. Like we have always been. Something different than that I see as idealization.
also they didn't just share what they found freely while walking around because those societies had cultures and rules and regulations. And we already had the power hungry element for sure. Difference is, when the agricultural societies arrived they had more resources and organization to be more oppressive. But I see your point, you do research on nutrition right? On that matter hunter-gatherer societies were probably much healthier than early agricultural ones.
I can't comment on Neanderthals as I don't know much of it.
I actually like this discussion, culture is my special interest
Here's a piece of the puzzle perhaps, but just a piece.
Hierarchy.
In animals that live in groups, there are normally hierarchies, or 'pecking orders'. In periods of limited food the animals at the bottom do not get any at all and starve or in some cases are killed.
So I wonder if part of the continual urge in people in establishing hierarchies is a survival instinct, that is to have a position on the ladder high enough to weather lean times.
That is probably not the only function of hierarchy. It likely has other purposes, such as procuring the best mate, reducing internal group frictions by establishing a kind of rank structure, etc.
Hierarchy.
In animals that live in groups, there are normally hierarchies, or 'pecking orders'. In periods of limited food the animals at the bottom do not get any at all and starve or in some cases are killed.
So I wonder if part of the continual urge in people in establishing hierarchies is a survival instinct, that is to have a position on the ladder high enough to weather lean times.
That is probably not the only function of hierarchy. It likely has other purposes, such as procuring the best mate, reducing internal group frictions by establishing a kind of rank structure, etc.
No its not about the best mate.
.
yes, because before it was thought they were like crazy irrational barbarians that would go around killing each other for no particular reason. The realization that they actually have cultures, sets of values, beliefs, rules etc like our own society, without those evolutionary or ethnocentric views, is very recent even to anthropologists (last century) let alone to everyone else. There are pacific groups, like the semai, but they are rare, most are violent. I am not stating particularly violent, only as violent as is expected of a human society. Greatest exception really is modern developed world that is comparatively very pacific even counting the two world wars of last century! Yes, this is true.
Hierarchy.
In animals that live in groups, there are normally hierarchies, or 'pecking orders'. In periods of limited food the animals at the bottom do not get any at all and starve or in some cases are killed.
So I wonder if part of the continual urge in people in establishing hierarchies is a survival instinct, that is to have a position on the ladder high enough to weather lean times.
That is probably not the only function of hierarchy. It likely has other purposes, such as procuring the best mate, reducing internal group frictions by establishing a kind of rank structure, etc.
yes, like you said, it is only a piece. We humans are animals but we have important particularities that CANNOT be discounted from the analysis. Biologists and evolutionary biologists are specially susceptible to making this mistake (some have very good insights of course). The function of hierarchies in human societies is a very complex issue and we have thousands of books of anthropology, sociology, political science etc related to it. We have to be very careful when comparing our power structures to that of lions or monkeys.
