Nonverbal LD - considered on the autism spectrum?
daydreamer84
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Callista wrote:
daydreamer84 wrote:
What about the difficulty understanding spatial relations, problems with spatial/visual perception and problems that often go along with it, like trouble learning mathematics beyond a certain level when there's a strong spatial competent to some of it? These are also main symptoms of NLD. That's why it's sometimes considered a specific learning disorder. I think it's a kind-of cross between a developmental and a specific learning disorder because of the symptoms you listed.However people with AS can be very good with spatial relations and mathematics. I don't think that's a minor difference.
Actually, "the majority of individuals with AS/HFA have a significant but clinically modest math weakness" (Source). And the visual/spatial problems are obvious when you give Aspies an IQ test--they tend to score with Verbal>Performance, implying a visual-spatial deficit.Quote:
Also, NVLD doesn't present with repetitive behaviours (stimming, special interests) and the social impairment is usually less severe than in ASD. These differences I see as more minor. They are very similar but I think not the same.
Stimming and special interests aren't necessary for diagnosis of Asperger's. A person can have neither one, and be diagnosed with AS on the basis of being detail-focused (having problems seeing the big picture) or being routine-dependent.You might be right about it being just another variation or undistinguished sub-type of ASD. Maybe it should be on the autism spectrum. There have been contradictory studies about whether people with AS have higher verbal IQ, I did a report on it in undergrad. The study about the math weakness is really interesting. The thing is my mum taught an ASD program and she said most of the kids in her program were good with graphics and interpreting graphs (spatial stuff) and some very good at visual art. Also, a lot of kids with ASD have advanced drawing skills and mine were very immature as a kid and I had trouble with orientation (I'd draw a house in the middle of the sky) longer than most kids. I also drew little patterns in boxes all over everything (even if I was asked to draw my family or fruits etc) and that could be an ASD detail focus thing but I had particular difficulties with spatial orientation that other kids didn't have.
Anyway, I'm not sure but it's interesting. I've been diagnosed with both.
Callista wrote:
We should clear something up here: the term "learning disability".
In some areas, "learning disability" is a general term that means that someone has an intellectual disability--that is, a general difficulty with learning and probably slower development in general. NVLD is not this type of learning disability.
However, "learning disability" can also mean a "specific learning disability"--that is, a difficulty with a relatively small area of learning, which is much more difficult for the person, compared to the person's other skills. Dyslexia is probably the most well-known example.
"Nonverbal learning disability" is meant in the second, specific sense. People with NVLD have profiles like this:...
Look at that list, and you'll see that it is essentially a description of a highly-verbal person with autism--that is, Asperger syndrome. These people have communication problems and social problems despite large vocabulary, have problems with meaning, connotation, and symbolism despite good reading skills, have trouble with transitions and novelty, and are physically awkward. Every single symptom on that list is also associated with either Asperger's or with autism in general.
So here's my opinion on the matter: NVLD is what autism looks like to someone who specializes in learning disabilities. Where Kanner saw autism as a sort of psychosis and Asperger saw it as a sort of personality disorder, NVLD comes from people who see autism in terms of neurology and learning. They are three perspectives on the same thing.
There are some minor differences between those groups, of course, but I cannot consider those differences to be particularly relevant. Autism is so diverse that the differences from person to person far outweigh the differences between the categories.
NVLD is also a much easier diagnosis to give when a child is intelligent and verbal, because many parents have a stereotype of autism as being a severe, obvious disorder, and the doctor might worry that they will either reject the diagnosis out of hand or assume that the child is much more impaired than they actually are. Terms like NVLD and Asperger's for this particular cognitive profile do serve a purpose: They have taught us that autistic does not need to mean incapable of learning, incapable of communicating, locked in your own world. I don't think they are diagnostically distinct, but they are useful because they offer new ways to look at autism--NVLD from a neurological perspective, Asperger's from a social-skills perspective. We just can't get too locked into one particular model, or we'll miss what we can learn from the others.
In some areas, "learning disability" is a general term that means that someone has an intellectual disability--that is, a general difficulty with learning and probably slower development in general. NVLD is not this type of learning disability.
However, "learning disability" can also mean a "specific learning disability"--that is, a difficulty with a relatively small area of learning, which is much more difficult for the person, compared to the person's other skills. Dyslexia is probably the most well-known example.
"Nonverbal learning disability" is meant in the second, specific sense. People with NVLD have profiles like this:...
Look at that list, and you'll see that it is essentially a description of a highly-verbal person with autism--that is, Asperger syndrome. These people have communication problems and social problems despite large vocabulary, have problems with meaning, connotation, and symbolism despite good reading skills, have trouble with transitions and novelty, and are physically awkward. Every single symptom on that list is also associated with either Asperger's or with autism in general.
So here's my opinion on the matter: NVLD is what autism looks like to someone who specializes in learning disabilities. Where Kanner saw autism as a sort of psychosis and Asperger saw it as a sort of personality disorder, NVLD comes from people who see autism in terms of neurology and learning. They are three perspectives on the same thing.
There are some minor differences between those groups, of course, but I cannot consider those differences to be particularly relevant. Autism is so diverse that the differences from person to person far outweigh the differences between the categories.
NVLD is also a much easier diagnosis to give when a child is intelligent and verbal, because many parents have a stereotype of autism as being a severe, obvious disorder, and the doctor might worry that they will either reject the diagnosis out of hand or assume that the child is much more impaired than they actually are. Terms like NVLD and Asperger's for this particular cognitive profile do serve a purpose: They have taught us that autistic does not need to mean incapable of learning, incapable of communicating, locked in your own world. I don't think they are diagnostically distinct, but they are useful because they offer new ways to look at autism--NVLD from a neurological perspective, Asperger's from a social-skills perspective. We just can't get too locked into one particular model, or we'll miss what we can learn from the others.
Thank you so so much for your reply, gosh. I'm learning so much about my LD and the description of NVLD describes me to a "t", and I just had this moment of "I KNOW WHY I AM THE WAY I AM", you know? It's such a relief. You're definitely right about the stereotype about autism - I asked my mum why she never told me that I was technically on the autism spectrum, and she said "you never seemed autistic." Gross, right?
So, just to clarify, in your opinion you believe they are essentially the same thing? I'm getting my diagnosis """renewed""" if you can call it that, soon, for University things, so hopefully that will clear some things up.
Yes, essentially the same--you'll probably find both autism and NVLD resources to be helpful. ![]()
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