can someone explain me black and white thinking?

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League_Girl
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29 Apr 2014, 9:50 am

I never understood either how it's an autistic thing if I see it in everyone. I see it all the time online. I see the BS myth that autistic people don't judge but yet they say they see things in black and white and guess what, being judgmental is a form of black and white thinking so I find that information contradicting.

Maybe they are talking about taking things literal. If you tell an autistic person a social rule, they will think that rule is in absolute and not know that rule can change depending on a situation. Or if you tell them if they see anything on the ground that is lost, turn it in or leave it and the person will come back for it but they may not know if it's things like hair ties or a tooth brush or a card, or hair brush, that is okay to take because those things are cheap and not valuable. Besides I wouldn't even use someone else's tooth brush or hair brush because I don't know where they have been and what the person has who used those. But yet when my husband worked at the airport, someone found a Nintendo DS game and gave it to my husband. It was lost in the restroom and instead of returning it, it was given to us. But let's see, it was at an airport, whoever dropped it won't come back for it so it was either give it away or toss it and why have it go to waste when it can be given to someone? If it was somewhere like at work or at school, I would say turn it in because someone there might claim it asking if they have seen that game, if left on the bus, I would turn it to the bus driver so they can take it to lost and found. I once saw an umbrella stroller left at a bus stop and I told the bus driver about it and his surprise response was "Just leave it, it's been there all day so they might come back for it." I just did what he was told because I didn't know what to do in that situation. Do I take the stroller and take it to the lost and found myself or do I keep it since those things are twenty bucks but I had no use for one because I hate those cheap things. I like the more expensive ones that cost around 60 bucks because the handle bars are higher off the ground and easier for my husband to push and me too.

If you tell an autistic person losers weepers whatever the phrase goes, they will think that applies to everything they find and they won't know there are things they should give back or put in lost and found if found. I can remember the days of my mother correcting me when I would be so literal. She would tell me when it's situations like X you have to do that and I understood and then knew that rule didn't apply to that situation like if you are a guest at someone's house, it's okay to ask for food. If you are just someone who dropped by for a visit, not okay, only thing you can ask for is water. Mom had to tell me this when I was 12.

That is what they probably mean by black and white thinking. Why not just call it literal thinking? That makes more sense because black and white thinking means so many different things.


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micfranklin
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29 Apr 2014, 9:50 am

Even as a child, I wasn't always subject to black and white thinking, and not eveyr Aspie is either. Just making up a 3rd option is sufficient.



linatet
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29 Apr 2014, 9:57 am

the discussion is getting interesting...
also confusing :?
we didn't even come to a single idea of what black and white thinking is.



Last edited by linatet on 29 Apr 2014, 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

littlebee
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29 Apr 2014, 9:57 am

seanblack wrote:
michael517 wrote:
OK how about this.

You are out walking in a crowd. Somebody starts running to catch a bus, say. They pull out their wallet and a $5 bill falls on the ground. They get on the bus and the bus leaves, and there is the $5 bill on the ground. Is it stealing if you pick it up?

And in my mind, yes, it is, because I saw the person and I didn't give it back to him. But maybe NTs would say, will yeah, its theirs, but there is no way in heck you are going to catch up with them, so just take it.


yeah that's definitely a form of black and white that i'm familiar with hearing. Good example!

People on wp are quite frequently accusing others here of black and white thinking, so there are many examples, Don't you understand these various instances where this term is used to describe a particular person's comments? Usually in the various instances it makes sense to me.

It seems to me that someone who uses black and white thinking doesn't know how to think very well and so his opinion is of less value. Now someone could read this and think I am saying something derogatory about autistic people> because black and white thinking is considered to be a characteristic of autistic people, so therefore I am ditzing autistic people, but actually the real story is that some autistic people do not do black and white thinking or they do it to various degrees and can learn to think differenlly plus, as mentioned, some non autistic people do it too.

I think this thread is interesting so far, but I cannot see what else there is to say. It might be productive to enquire into what is behind black and white thinking, the mental, emotional dynamic behind it, but that might be difficult. Imo the function of most of these kind of mental dynamics is to not feel emotional pain or maybe a device to vent anger, anger being a common screen for feeling sorrow, the latter of which, feeling sorrow, is necessary to do in order to completely process certain things that are happening..If you do not want to look at autistic people or aspies, you could look at predjudice in a more general way, enquire into how it works.



Last edited by littlebee on 29 Apr 2014, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

League_Girl
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29 Apr 2014, 9:58 am

Kiriae wrote:
michael517 wrote:
OK how about this.

You are out walking in a crowd. Somebody starts running to catch a bus, say. They pull out their wallet and a $5 bill falls on the ground. They get on the bus and the bus leaves, and there is the $5 bill on the ground. Is it stealing if you pick it up?

And in my mind, yes, it is, because I saw the person and I didn't give it back to him. But maybe NTs would say, will yeah, its theirs, but there is no way in heck you are going to catch up with them, so just take it.


It isn't stealing because they won't get is back anyway - the bus already left and the 5$ will be gone till they manage to get back here. You could take the 5$ and give it to some worker around hoping they will give it to the person when the person gets back but it won't happen. The person won't be asking around "Anybody seen my 5$ I dropped here a hour ago?" and the worker will just take the 5$ to himself. You might leave it on ground like it is but someone else will take the 5$ then. Taking it to yourself is the only logical outcome. You might eventually take it and give 5$ to the person if you see him again - but it would be socially inappropriate.

Stealing is when you intentionally and secretly take someones belonging knowing it is his and having a sure way to give it back to him but ignoring the way.
There is no sure way to return 5$ to a stranger that is already gone. It is the same as finding it. If it was something important/characteristic (a wallet, huge amount of money, a piece of cloth, a book...) you might use some kind of "Lost&Found" tracks or leave it in a visible spot. But you can't track 5$ owner, the police will make fun of you if you come to them and say "Hey, a guy lost 5$ on the bus stop. I will leave it to you. You will find him and give it back to him, right?" and if you leave it in a visible spot it will be gone withing a few mins.

You might say it is gray thinking but it might be another black or white thinking as well - just the scale is moved.


Anyway.

People tent to tell me I often think white and black but I don't get it. In my opinion I think in gray most of the time. I assume there is nothing sure, especially about people. But thats true there are some categories my B&W thinking comes clearly. For example the expiration date on food:

Assume there is something with expiration date "the end of 29 April 2014". It was packed 30 January 2014 so it got quite a long availability. You would say it won't just melt as soon as it gets exactly 3 months old as long as you stored it properly and it is just a suggestion. But not me. I will eat it 29 April 2014 at 11:50PM but I won't eat it 30 April 2014 at 0:10AM. Once the date clicks the food becomes inedible.

That's what you call black and white thinking.



The sell by date is a safety thing they do so that is why they do these sell by dates. But if the thing has been unopened, it lasts longer and it's still good past the sell by date. But if it's been opened, it goes bad even before the sell by date because it's been opened and it needs to be eaten fast. But if it's way way past the sell by date, I wouldn't even want to think about eating it, especially if it's never been opened. Things expire for a reason even though it does not mean it's bad past that date, it's just for the stores so customers won't buy a bad product that has been sitting on the shelf for let's say a year. When it goes past that date, they take it off the shelf or they put it on the clearance rack and sell it for cheap. I have seen that in bakery sections.


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Kiriae
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29 Apr 2014, 10:10 am

League_Girl wrote:
But if it's been opened, it goes bad even before the sell by date because it's been opened and it needs to be eaten fast.

There is also a rule for something that has been open which I stick to. I won't eat anything that I am not sure it was open for no longer than 2 days (well, the amount of days is different for different food but 2 day is for most of them) and once I open something I always keep it in refrigerator unless it is something dry.

My parents often get angry with me because of it.

- Why the hell did you open another milk!? There was a open one in the refrigerator already!
- I was not sure how long it was open.
- I opened it today morning!
- Oh... ok... I didn't know that.

- Why did you put a ketchup to the shopping cart?! There is an almost full bottle in the house!
- It was staying on the table all night long.
- So what?
- It should be stored in a refrigerator after being open.
:roll:



Last edited by Kiriae on 29 Apr 2014, 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

littlebee
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29 Apr 2014, 10:16 am

Kiriae wrote:


Anyway.

People tend to tell me I often think white and black but I don't get it. In my opinion I think in gray most of the time. I assume there is nothing sure, especially about people. But thats true there are some categories my B&W thinking comes clearly. For example the expiration date on food:

Assume there is some food with expiration date "the end of 29 April 2014". It was packed 30 January 2014 so it got quite a long availability. You would say it won't just melt as soon as it gets exactly 3 months old as long as you stored it properly so it is just a suggestion. But not me. I will eat it 29 April 2014 at 11:50PM but I won't eat it 30 April 2014 at 0:10AM. Once the date clicks the food becomes inedible.

That's what you call black and white thinking.

This is a form of literalism which could be filed under the category of black and white thinking, but actually it is probably more a form of obsessive-compulsion.

Also, for your own safety it should be noted that many foods especially meat and poultry tend to go bad way before the expiration data, but I guess if it smells bad you would have enough sense not to eat it..



League_Girl
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29 Apr 2014, 10:20 am

Kiriae wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
But if it's been opened, it goes bad even before the sell by date because it's been opened and it needs to be eaten fast.

There is also a rule for something that has been open which I stick to. I won't eat anything that I am not sure it was open for no longer than 2 days (well, the amount of days is different for different food but 2 day is for most of them) and once I open something I always keep it in refrigerator unless it is something dry.

My parents often get angry with me because of it:
- Why the hell did you open another milk!? There was a open one in the refrigerator already!
- I was not sure how long it was open.
- I opened it today morning!
- Oh... ok...

And:
- Why did you put a ketchup to the shopping cart?! There is almost a full bottle in the house!
- It was staying on the table all night long.
- So what?
- It should be stored in a refrigerator after being open.
:roll:


Man maybe you should buy your own groceries, that might end the madness with your parents. It would be your own money you used so therefore they won't have to worry about you wasting food because they didn't buy it so no money wasted.


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Kiriae
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29 Apr 2014, 10:21 am

littlebee wrote:
Also, for your own safety it should be noted that many foods especially meat and poultry tend to go bad way before the expiration data, but I guess if it smells bad you would have enough sense not to eat it..

I always look at the food and smell it before eating. And I generally avoid eating meat.

League_Girl wrote:
Man maybe you should buy your own groceries, that might end the madness with your parents. It would be your own money you used so therefore they won't have to worry about you wasting food because they didn't buy it so no money wasted.

It would make even more expenses since I eat the same stuff they do and the amount would double. Besides. I would have to buy my own refrigerator as well since my parents tend to fill the whole refrigerator with outdated food. I am not the only one who wastes food in our house and they rarely trash any food. There is a unopened glass of something homemade I can't even identify that is at least 3 years old already and my mom always tell me "Keep it. It is still good." when we clean the refrigerator. That's probably the reason why I am so obsessive with the dates. It's not funny to find a melted salad in back of a refrigerator that my mom pushed there when it was still good to make place for new groceries and then forgot the salad is there.



Last edited by Kiriae on 29 Apr 2014, 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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29 Apr 2014, 10:26 am

Black and White thinking, in its simplest form, is thinking in Absolutes.



linatet
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29 Apr 2014, 10:42 am

Kiriae wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
But if it's been opened, it goes bad even before the sell by date because it's been opened and it needs to be eaten fast.

There is also a rule for something that has been open which I stick to. I won't eat anything that I am not sure it was open for no longer than 2 days (well, the amount of days is different for different food but 2 day is for most of them) and once I open something I always keep it in refrigerator unless it is something dry.

My parents often get angry with me because of it.

- Why the hell did you open another milk!? There was a open one in the refrigerator already!
- I was not sure how long it was open.
- I opened it today morning!
- Oh... ok... I didn't know that.

- Why did you put a ketchup to the shopping cart?! There is an almost full bottle in the house!
- It was staying on the table all night long.
- So what?
- It should be stored in a refrigerator after being open.
:roll:

this reminds me of my own eating rules but I don't think this is black and white thinking, but rigid habits common in autistics



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29 Apr 2014, 11:26 am

***
Here's a good rule of thumb for all here---when an idea causes you emotional pain, even a wee little bit, try to feel that pain rather than think it away by mentally flipping to an opposite which makes you temporarily feel better. Of course, in order to do this you would have to be self aware, as people usually do not notice when they are feeling a wee little bit of pain, as the 'human' inclination is not to feel it in any degree and to do anything to try to get away from it. Also, when you think, try to think from both ends of the stick. Try to dedicate yourself to developing this skill. For en example, from my end of the stick, some people say the Bible is stupid and completely dismiss it because they themselves are taking obvious allegorical material literally. But actually they are dismissing some of the greatest spiritual writing of humanity, but rather than try to understand a style of writing that is new to them, they would rather waste their time fighting other stupid people like themselves who believe in the Bible but also take it literally.



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29 Apr 2014, 12:48 pm

Sometimes I think normally and sometimes my thinking gets a bit black and white, but I think that's true for most people. It seems like I'm a black and white thinker at the wrong times.

Like stuff that is related to me. One example is my sexuality. I know that there's a lot of grey area in sexuality and I accept that grey area in other people. I just don't accept it in my sexuality. I really just want a simple and black and white sexuality, but my sexuality is ambiguous as hell. It drives me crazy. I'm also a black and white thinker for other stuff related to me. It seems like my black and white thinking mostly disappears when it has nothing to with me.


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29 Apr 2014, 6:14 pm

The unoped food example is brilliant! I think everyone's definition of black and white thinking is going to vary because it manifests differently in everyone. For me there's often an all or nothing attitude to things. I can be black and white with people too, I find it difficult to understand neutrality towards myself - im not borderline so im assuming its an aspie like trait. Literalism is another one, I used to take double meaning jokes literally: "Im secretly in love with my lecturer" I would take this literally. I had to learn how to interpret that sort of humour very very quickly.

Black and white thinking is a manifestation of cognitive rigidity and is subsumed under its bracket. Literal thinking, thinking in terms of binary oppositions. I have an acquaintance who helped me to learn how and to see the grey in EVERYTHING. Extremely valuable intellectual partnership there actually.

I needed someone to trip me up eveyrtime I made a black and white assumption and thus simplified an issue. Not seeing the wood for the trees or rather not being able to see the big picture and focusing on the minutiae that concerns my interest.


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29 Apr 2014, 8:38 pm

Black & white thinking is a fun sort of exercise that does not allow for any "judgements" or exceptions, no extenuating circumstances.

It's bad to cut people with a knife, therefore surgeons are bad.
It's bad to break into a home, therefore a fireman chopping a door open to rescue a burning victim is bad.

It's wrong to kill, therefore you can't kill to protect yourself or your kids,
nor can you kill animals for food,
and eating a tomato would kill it so that's a no-no,
and you can't even use anti-bacterial soap 'cuz it kills bacteria.
And definitely don't jack-off, because every sperm is sacred.

wiki/ Black and white thinking

wiki/ Splitting


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1401b
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29 Apr 2014, 8:42 pm

micfranklin wrote:
Even as a child, I wasn't always subject to black and white thinking, and not eveyr Aspie is either. Just making up a 3rd option is sufficient.

That could be called a false trilemma.


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