NT vs. AS

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S'funny, I'd only just thought of the juice analogy in that very lost I guess you could say we're all our own personal cocktail...different flavours to make one heck of a smoothie. And getting to know someone is taking a bigass swig of said smoothie...and like a wine-taster, getting a really good feeling for every flavour that rolls over the tongue. The a**holes that have a go at you...they have a quick sniff of the smoothie (or just look at the colour of it) and decide they don't like it without even trying it!

Of course you can never change the overall flavour and feeling of your cocktail, but little modifications or improvements to yourself is like adding little bits and pieces here. I think my smoothie overall has quite a mango-ish taste Say I decide that I'm tired of being a little prickly towards people, tone down the sarcastic responses and force myself to be nice...I add some sickly sweetness with a strawberry or two. Still tastes like mango but you can taste the strawberries Or say I get a bit depressed, things are getting hard in life...the bananas in my smoothie have gotten old and oxidised, it's gone a bit brown and sour in there Hopefully someone can come along and share some fresh bananas with me.

Omfg, that was the world's most random and OFF TOPIC metaphor.

I was getting thirsty and then the bananas turned brown. That ruined it! LOL

LOL. See? See? No one wants rotten bananas

Man, this metaphor could go a long way

I s'pose you could go deeper and say that changing yourself to a huge degree would be like dumping a motherload of cherries into your chocolate-flavoured smoothie, cuz eeeeveryone else likes cherries It's foreign, it doesn't taste like you any more, and everyone can still see and taste the chocolate. So when people tell you to change...screw it At the same time, it can't hurt to have just a leeettle bit of the cherries so there's something that everyone likes in there, and it doesn't offend your flavour too much

Begs the question, does 'Aspie' have a distinct flavour of its own specifically?

I swear, I'm a whole bunch of really strong flavours that look like an NT milkshake, but really don't taste like one Oddball alert. I'm a weird flavour but if you add a few things here and there I can go with any meal And only taste just a little weird. (Not quite chocolate sauce on steak. Lmao.)

America used to be referred to as a "melting pot," but more and more it's referred to as a stir-fry. This is because instead of different cultures blending together into an homoginized stew, they retain their individual flavor, much like the different ingrediants of a stir-fry.

It can be the same with aspie culture, but two things have to happen.

The general population has to recognize and respect our unique cultural identity. This is a matter of consciousness raising. There is currently movement in the right direction.

We have to learn the language. We can go back to speaking our native tongue when we get home in the evening, but the world requries good basic communication skills for meaningful participation. It's okay if we speak with an accent.

I put this on the eye contact post, but it really relates to Mark's post. Sometimes we fixate on this stuff (I do it myself) and we need the reset key hit, but we are all just dealing with our frustration and the bottom line is, so are they. That's the biggest thing to remember and sometimes it's just hard to get out of your own space and see it (for all kinds of things, not just AS/NT).


Anyway, here's kind of amusing look at learning the language and what happens everytime I think I have it. Just read it for what it is and enjoy. The major message here is that even if you do it and mess it up, if you keep at it, it will work out for you and the NTs (is anyone neuro typical really?). So here goes...


I can do it to get on, but here's what I've found out happens (sometimes it's good to be a manager because after your employees know you long enough they tell you these things). I do it and I'm think I'm doing it right for years. I am talking years! Then, suddenly I will say something to one of my employees and they will look at me strangely and say, "You NEVER do it right. Everyone just gets weirded out by it and finally gets over it because we all know you're stranger than s__t and we still like you." I get that about many things. Like I will think I am acutally getting subcontexts and jokes and references to pop culture things, then I say something because I'm comfortable with that person and get told that everyone knows I do it wrong, they just have gotten over it and moved on. That's about the point where I feel like I've put this massive, exhausting effort into it and it didn't work anyway. In the end, they just decided what I knew and how I treated them (fairly, stood up for them, got them decent raises) is what actually made the difference and not my pretense at eye contact and the rest of it.


This sums it up perfectly. I got this in a Christmas card from a uber NT woman (she's a trainer and very feely so we are polar opposites in personality not to mention NT/AS). "You're still strange, but I like ya anyway. Let's do lunch." That is the perfect summation of my forays into the NT world. They end up kind of comical, but for the fact that they exhaust me. (Dealing with me probably exhausts her too.) That woman by the way absolutely hated me when I first worked with her. We've even talked about that. I didn't put it in AS terms because that was 1996 when we met. But, it was a classic NT/AS communication breakdwon. It took three years for her to get comfortable and figure out that I wasn't being mean to her, that I really didn't get it. She honestly did think I was messing with her. She says it was because I was so intelligent (hey, as long as she's impressed!) she just couldn't comprehend that I really couldn't understand those things, but later, she did finally see that it was consistent and happened with everyone, not just her. Now, we do go to lunch or even to some clothing stores! I even took a trip to Colorado with her twice. But, we've also learned how to get along. We don't change who we are, but we just know our limits with each other. We can only handle so much of each other because we are polar opposites. But, that's ok. I'm still strange, but she likes me anyway. She's still overly needy and gushy, but I kind of like her too.

Yeah, foreigners sometimes seem funny. I wonder what true extra-terrestrials are like.

I agree. This animosity however (speaking for myself) was started by NTs and shows no end in sight. What I need is a NT friend to cure me. Where I can I find one for myself? Please don't say, "to have a friend, one must first be a friend." That theory has never worked for me.

P.S. - My animosity didn't really exist until I recently discovered that such a thing as Aperger Syndrome existed. Before knowing about AS, I was generally a doormat. I'm sure after this novelty (and rightful anger) wears off, I won't be quite as rude. That's when I think I'll find the balance between being a victim verses a bully.

Also, it might be important to add (especially if others are like how I am) that I'm not anywhere near as bad offline as I am online here on WrongPlanet.net. I just get heated up here due to the sensitivity and reality of what goes on in this world.

And the unfortunate reality is that if we can't talk frankly here about how we really feel, we will just become strangers within our own group. Personally, I think it has to get on the table and be dealt with. (Unfortunately because new people keep coming on, that's going to continue to happen.) To me, the only way change is going to happen by sharing experiences and stories to break down the barriers. Otherwise, one of two things will happen 1) the person will hold the belief in silence and add a new group to distrust or 2) the person will come to believe they are a stranger even in their own land and dump the board as just another place that makes them feel bad about who they are. I think the majority of us feel like we've been strangers long enough.

So, my own proposal would be that we just speak up when we see it, show some examples of where the reverse has been true and let experience be the teacher for all of us. It seems much more constructive than enforced or coerced silence and it will actually start to change the view if we're consistent.

What say you all?

Amen.

People should express the way they feel...that's a given..but I have every right to challenge them.
What I meant was that "neurotypical" is really broad, and NT people don't all get along, and some NT's are less "neurotypical" than others.

Asperger's is something biological....being a certain race, or a sexual orientation,etc.-isn't something you should be "proud" of, it's just the way you were born. I'm not saying you should be ashamed of it..but there's a lot of people that are really pretentious about their condition...thinking it's "us vs. them" when not all asperger's people get along with each other even.

It's always best to instruct by example.

We just all have to remember that we don't have to apologize for who we are because of bad wiring in our brains, but the NTs (such a weird term) also don't have to apologize for the fact that they don't get it until they learn about it. Those things are not diametrically opposed, nor are they necessarily related, they just are.

I've always been taught (in school and in corporations) that everyone, AS and NT alike, learns much quicker by simply seeing other viewpoints. A mandate either way in this argument will bring us right back to impasse. So, better we just all agree to share what we've learned and come to know. We'd also all do better to just post something as soon as we see it happening. Ambiguity doesn't work well with most AS people (or NTs for that matter). So, let's just bring it up when it happens and talk to each other about it. There are plenty examples on here of people misinterpreting others' posts and the person having to go back and clarify. It's not as if communicating what we mean is an AS strong suit. But, we can all help each other learn that valuable skill by simply addressing it when we see it and getting it cleared up then.

Anyone see where we this wouldn't work?

I'd agree with the above two posts. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and a right to voice it in the correct place (this being one of them), but it's more the after-effects of said venting that are a little on the risky side.

How many of you were on the AS vs NT bandwagon before you knew about WP?

I think the terminology has just become a catchphrase for everything to dislike about the common population, and everyone non-Aspie. Fact is, I doubt there are very many 'neurotypical' people out there. There are a lot of non-Aspies, but not all of them are 'neurotypical'. It's like saying the typical sized woman is a size 12, and Aspies are a size 10. Everyone non-sized-10 isn't 'typical', they're just not size 10.

It's fantastic to share experiences, especially the more emotionally charged ones. It's helpful to so many people to know they are not alone, they have suffered the same.

Where it becomes worrying is when it's suddenly blamed on one soul source - the rest of humanity in general. Focussed hatred helps no one, first and foremost it hurts ourselves. I highly doubt you're happy and destressed when you're seething with hate.

Besides, stereotyping is for the ignorant. To completely contradict my points so far, isn't the average NT known for stereotyping people - particularly people like Aspies?

As above, no one should apologise for being the way they are - but neither should a 'neurotypical' because that's the way they were born too.

I like the race reference there...it ties in beautifully. I'm half-chinese, half-white...I look mostly Asian. Am I exceedingly proud of this fact? Heck no. Am I ashamed? NEVER. I just -AM-. Do I stand out in the crowd? Well, when I think that everyone else out there is white except me, then hell yeah I stand out. But when I realise there are other Asians, half-Asians, Pakeha, Maori, Pacific Islanders, Indians, Middle Easterns and so many more out there walking up and down the street...suddenly I'm as different as everyone else.

The language point is a fantastic one too. If you emigrate to another country (say for the sake of example, Japan) to live long-term you are expected to learn the language (with an accent, lol). You're expected to integrate into their society. You're in a country dominated by them, after all. They, however, are expected to treat you with the same respect as anyone else in their country, treat you as an equal, accept you. The point about going back to your own language at night when you go home to your family...love it

There's only one thing to think about with that language reference and it is this...

As I've found out over the years, we mimic the language we don't understand and we never understand it or use it correctly. I've learned several languages and have even lived in a foreign country where I learned the language on the fly while I lived there. I actually did understand what they were saying and they understood me. That is not the same thing as being mind blind or have executive function that doesn't allow you to interpret things or even messages that don't make it. That is a brain disorder, not a reluctance to learn the language of the country your in. We just have to be careful to recognize that difference. Otherwise after years, the person who mimicked will find that they too thought they had it right while everyone still thought they were stranger than you know what, but just finally realized that they did it all the time and it was nothing personal. Or, I like you anyway.


It's actually more like someone drops you off in Russia, but you're left without the brain functions to learn Russian or absorb the culture. So, you repeat the words because you must survive and some words get a smile and some words get a slap or a harsh word. Sometimes the word gets a smile one time and a slap or harsh word the next. Eventually, you start to avoid the words that always or sometimes get a harsh word or slap. You still have no clue what the words mean, but you use only the ones that get a positive reaction. The words could actually be "I like cereal" for all you know. Mostly nonsensical to the listener but nothing that would cause anyone to get mad. After years, one Russian learns English and tells you, "You never did make any sense with your Russian, but we liked you anyway." That would be more what it's like.


Hope that made sense.


Shale, just speak up if we say something. Your opinion is just as important and it's perfectly fine to say, Hey! Wait a minute!


And you are right that NT is a strange term since I'm not so sure anyone is neurotypical. However, if we use non-Aspie, we'd end up with N/A which doesn't have good connotations either! We need a new and better term. That could be another thread. They could be E/E's. Everybody else. Yuck. Don't like that either. They really need a great name like Aspies. They could be SELLs - Social and Eye Language Literate.


Or AOPs. All other people. Don't they put something similar to that on forms. That always looks so weird.

I think they should be Shalians after Shale. Just joking with you, Shale.