We are evolved

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Well to an extent it could be said we have evolved somewhat differently than the neurotypicals, but to suggest its in a more superior manner or something like that doesn't seem right to me since realistically it does still impair functioning and many people without autism are able to function better...I mean even if society was more understanding there are difficulties I'd still have related to autism.

Viewing autistics as people who need to be trained like dogs seems to me to be worse than fantasies of autistic supremacy. Maybe the latter is a reaction to the societal prevalence of the former?

I agree with this.

I don't mean to be rude, but the whole evolution theory can never make sense if it only revolves around the 'highest functioning' end of the spectrum, which it always does.

Yeah, we'd probably trip over our own feet running away from a lion...then who gets to have the last laugh (besides the lion)?

Yeah while dogs and humans certainly have their simularities, I think an autistic person is a bit more complicated than a dog....I mean a dog is all about loyalty and loving its human and they think in a more simple way hence why such training is appropriate and not detrimental to them. with an autistic child there is a number of things that could be going on causing certain behaviors or making them hard to control so simple reward/punishment wont work if there is a deeper issue there...like being punished for something you can't help only makes things worse...sometimes from what I understand this ABA therapy will even try to stop autistic s from stimming or exhibiting any behavior thats even remotely autistic. Or for instance eye contact I don't even want to know how much worse my mental state would be had I had to endure consistantly being 'punished' for not making eye contact and then 'rewarded' when I do because then I just would have learned it you let people push you into doing things you are uncomfortable with they will treat you well for it. So yeah I think trying to train an autistic person the way you would a dog is just degrading...as it ignores all the internal stuff that could be going on and how to adress that just attempts to condition them to act normal. As for it being very effective do autistics its been used on agreee it was very effective and useful for them?

I don't know the loin might be doing more munching than laughing.

I see what you mean. But what I meant comes from a different dimension altogether. I think those difficulties are all in relation to the extrovert material frame of reference. I'm not sure if you have had the same psychotic experiences that I've gone through that have made me view autism in a different light, most autistic seem not to have had that. The disability might be a mechanism to push you in a different direction. If you try to swim against the current you'll only see the current as disabling, if you allowed it to take you where it wanted to take you without you judging, which is based on the conditioning and from aligning with the surrounding environment, maybe you'd begin to see the current as a blessing instead. For me that came as a "straw that breaks the camel's back". I was struggling and striving and then I gave up. When I gave up my whole world changed.

This is false.
http://phylointelligence.com/observed.html


This is also false, google SNPs and CNVs. All living things undergo mutation all the time, some of these changes have no effect, some are pathological, some are beneficial. You see variations in the genome of a base or two here and there or duplications and deletions of hundreds of thousand or even millions of bases. Some of these variations are associated with disease an some are not. The idea that a change in a single atom = an unfavorable mutation is just wrong.


Again, this is false. For a favorable mutation, you need to have the mutation confer some benefit. This will propagate through the ordinary cellular machinery of transcription and translation.


This is false! They would merely have to reproduce with the existing members of their species and transmit the mutation to the next generation. If the mutation confers reproductive benefit and some other random factors don't wipe out the offspring, the mutation will become more and more prevalent in successive generations.

People are free to believe what they want, but it makes no sense to try and argue the truth of ideas that are contrary to observable, testable features of reality.

I sometimes wonder how I'd be viewing my autism if I didn't also have anxiety and depression issues since I was a kid, I mean I am pretty certain there are still things I would have difficulty with even if I was going more with the current...or if society was more fitting for people on the spectrum. Like the executive functioning difficulties having a difficult time getting things done and the sensory issues I mean not much can be done about the sun being too bright...I try to wear sunglasses but of course those are extra uncomfortable due to sensory issues and I live near a city so you're going to get exposed to traffic noise and construction noise and all kinds of stuff that can be pretty overwhelming but there are always noise cancelling headphones and music though sometimes its safer not to have headphones in depending on where you are and if you need to be more alert or if I am with someone I feel like it would be rude to have headphones in while we're walking. But then a lot of the issues with it are how people have treated me for being 'weird' or unusual or more or less going against the current though mostly unintentionally while a lot of people try very hard to go against the current but a lot 'grow out' of it though not so sure if I see that as growing if enough people challenged the current it would have to change, I'd say over-all the depression, anxiety and PTSD are my worst issues but even without those and just autism I still feel like I would have some significant difficulties but probably a better quality of life.

Ah see here I think you have mis unturpted my meaning I never said autistic people should be trained like dogs. I was actually using this apology to say we are no better then NTs as the OP said NTs basicly work or enviorment let stimuli and social stuff, I was pointing out that as autistics we too respond to pleasant an negative stimuli and we are really no different thenNTs in this way, it is why I also noted that ABA is con traversal but it wasn't the point. My point is we think diffrently but like NTs we also respond to pleasure and punishment it just isn't social driven so much.

Literally everything you have said there is wrong. Most of them have already been explained, but this remains:


The first evolutionary biologists had no concept of "mutation". This is something that has been discovered since.

I think you might need to check the reliability of some of your sources of information. Some of the things you say - particularly "there are no beneficial mutations" - are creationist propaganda with no basis in fact.

I have had problems with not fitting in, bullying, loneliness, depression, anxiety, other social problems, OCD etc. Not sure how my situation has been compared to yours, that's very hard to know. But I think evil is enlightenment, Satan is Lucifer, the light bearer. I hope that you come to view it that way too.

Last edited by tomato on 08 Jun 2014, 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well not so sure evil is enlightenment but it seems societies a lot of times veiw enlightenment as evil....I actually used to consider myself a spiritual satanist, meaning I believed those spirits where real but not evil more enlightening its difficult to try and explain because it was a while ago but yeah it was closer to sort of pagan beliefs than like the 'devil worshiping' you see in horror movies and such. But the more I tried to fit my experiences into that specific belief the harder it got so now I guess I'd consider myself more of an unaffiliated pagan of some kind who believes there are potentially multiple spiritual forces though sometimes I consider maybe they are more just inter-dimensional beings or maybe that's the same thing. Sometimes I feel as though I need to try to get back to my more spiritual side....but at the same time it can be scary as you become more sensitive to the spiritual forces/beings/energies which wouldn't be scary if it was just the nice ones.

I can so relate to this. We have however been per-conditionalized that one is good and the other is evil. It is not as simple as all of that. We have good and evil in our world and the spiritual world is NO different. If you consider the bible, the tree of knowledge and the tree of life were BOTH considered evil and man was purposely tempted by them (according to the biblical account). We all know the story that Eve coerced Adam into eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge (which was considered evil and not to be touched). It then goes on to state that had they eaten of the tree of life (giving them immortality), it says that they would be as "WE" are. Not I am. Ponder that for one. Just be it known that Pagan beliefs are in NO way worshiping Satan as it is often portrayed. It is just a different way of spiritual enlightenment. It is up to the individual to pursue things for the purpose of good or evil. These things aren't inherently either but there are malevolent spirits that one does NOT want to fool with for sure. But this is drifting way off of the topic started by the OP.

I don't look upon our condition so much as being defective then just born different. It does then to make us hyper-focused on particular areas of interest. It could be spirituality, science, technology, philosophy, you name it. We are ALL part of a society with differing talents that should be working together to better the whole of society. In ages past, these special people with their special talents be it artists or the holy man on the mountain all played a part and the rest of society recognized that and supported them. If you look closely at what history says, many of these "super-talented" individuals were way beyond anything else anyone was doing in that very particular niche that they occupied. It was appreciated and the holy man living alone in the mountain was given food, clothing, etc in return for his teachings. The artists, scientists, etc were no different. Reading further most couldn't survive on their own without help of the rest of society but they gave in return the fruits of their specialties.

So I think our condition is NOT so much a defect but a normal part of humanity. It is within the variability of our species and our kind have been here since humans began roaming the earth. Now we have a label and they call us Autistic, so what? I believe we have played our part in society as a whole and help to advance humanity to rise above that of the rest of the mammals on this planet. I do NOT think it is a genetic defect, just a variable the pops up and is encoded into the genetics. It CANNOT be evolution because the vast majority of us could NOT survive on our own without some sort of support. However the rest of society may not have advanced at near the rate it has if not for us. To be sure there are plenty of NTs who were gifted over time as well. Also some on the spectrum did not fare as well as others but even that variability happens with NTs as well.

Our biggest problem in this day and age is that since we don't fit the "mold" of the modern world we are shunned and treated as though we are defective. Unlike ages past where society accepted and saw the value today we are just cast aside as being non-productive burdens on the rest of society. But also today how many know their neighbours? Times past neighbourhoods were much like extended family. Now you are lucky if you happen to even know them individually by name. Many things have changed and not for the better at least socially for humans. Yes we are progressing at breakneck pace in technology and the sciences. But human interactions and understanding if anything has De-evolved to the point that societies are polarized. Gone are the days where politicians worked together and compromised for the good of the whole. Gone are the days that different belief structures got along letting each other pursue their thing. All we have left are extreme radicalism that has taken the world over. It will be our undoing and may hasten or cause our extinction if we can't learn to get along on this rock and become a functioning part of it rather then raping it for its riches and moving on to the next treasure trove.

Ok this was my rant for the year probably. I don't do it often but when I do it always ends up tl;dnr for most.

You make a lot of good points KB. And I especially agree with the ones I quoted. That's why I always say that Autism is a whole lot more than the diagnosis of Autism. It didn't even have a name in the past, now it is considered a "defect".

And we have more brain cells than the average NT ... http://www.livescience.com/44409-autism ... birth.html

It's not considered a defect, you have a strange way of interpreting disability. It's a developmental disability and there's nothing wrong with that.

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