Is manipulation always bad?

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If you can sell yourself, your ideas, etc. without hurting anyone, I fail to see the problem. Because of my lack of social skills, I sometimes study and utilize "advanced" social skills that most NTs' are not aware of, to even out the playing field, at least a little bit. If I did not do this, my ideas would count for about...oh, nothing. BTW, I only feel a need for this around NTs' with power whose decisions can often have extremely negative ramifications for more vulnerable people [including myself]

I'm not sure what you mean by this (the part in bold). I can talk to people, men or women, but I don't focus on any of them to practice my "manipulating" skills" or whatever it is you're doing. In your case you seem to be focusing especially on women.



None of my business, but I was not implying that you were cheating, I only meant exactly what I said.



I'm sorry if I missed the part where you said you didn't like how he hurt other people. But unfortunately his determination included doing whatever it takes to get whatever he wanted, not caring in the least about the people he was stealing, that was the main problem with him, and this is the kind of things a sociopath/psychopath can do without remorse. Apart from this, he does have a certain talent for motivation, and I think he is doing exactly this now, this is a good side of him imo.



This "long term planning/manipulation" is so NT (i.e. non-autistic), psychopaths/sociopaths also do this. I see this as a problem if a person is manipulating other people's feelings under false pretenses. In this case for example, I would hate to meet a person like you, whom I would believe I could trust, and whom I would believe could actually understand me, just to realise later that I was just a part of some "science project" (testing your knowledge or whatever it is you're doing) for this person. I'm really glad I don't hang out in bars risking to meet such a person, I have met enough manipulative people in my life, I don't need any around me.



You implied that they are "risk takers", you also use the word "wild", and that they considered sex "fun" as opposed to "sacred", etc. You didn't use the word "bad", but you were describing exactly a certain stereotype that is perceived as a "bad girl" in society (which doesn't mean that they are actually bad people). And you're completely wrong about this assumption too. The girl in the video I posted actually has social anxiety, and other issues/fears, she's not at all the kind of girl you describe, despite having many tattoos, and smoking.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7I9jlno4dI[/youtube]



You say that you were diagnosed with Aspergers, but you simply don't sound like an Aspie at all to me, you are way too manipulative, and this makes me wonder if you were misdiagnosed, and/or misdiagnosed at a very young age because you had a few traits due to other "conditions" that could be mistaken for Aspergers traits. By the way if you want to "ensure your best chances of advancement in life", maybe you should start focusing on men too and not just on women.

Last edited by Shadi2 on 16 Jun 2014, 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Define manipulation. There have been so many things called "manipulative" that I can't give a definite answer. People have been called manipulative for simply asking someone else to do something, and accused of doing things "for attention" when in reality they aren't even thinking of what other people may be thinking of them at all.

If you can replace the word "manipulation" with something like "negotiation", "diplomacy", or "persuasion", then it's fine. If it's more like "deceit", "coercion", or "taking advantage", then it's not.

The big difference is that when you engage in persuasion, negotiation, diplomacy, you're meeting the other person as an equal, making an offer, and trying to connect effectively with them. You may be wanting to change their mind, but you're doing it by making the case that if they saw the full picture they would agree with you--not by confusing or tricking them into doing what you want. If you want them to do something, you're doing it by explaining why they should want to do it, or else you're making a request that they're free to say "no" to.

From that first point I was only saying that other people in the world are still attractive even though I would never act upon it. It's still nice though to have an attractive member of the opposite sex like you or appreciate you. I know I go into different obsessions at times and social communication was a weak point in most of my life so that became an obsession to get better at. I don't feel I use people, and my goal is not to use them as an experiment. only have a enjoyable conversation in the best way that I can. How else am I supposed to get better at talking besides actually talking with people? Also I have also studied general psychology as well, I only slightly went into that in my last thread because my last thread was about the skills I learned to find date and marry my wife, so I was mainly talking about women In my last thread. I also like talking to girls because emotions and how people naturally express them are fascinating to me(my main choice is music is very slow tempo with a female singer, its the most emotional kind and I like listening to it). I don't manipulate people to watch the react I different ways like they are putting on a show, I just find out the best way of communicating with that person to help make them more comfortable (along with me)

I said it earlier but I see myself very similarly to how Sherlock Holmes acts (although he is perfectly happy with how he communicates) He is a major long term planner, he takes in and analyzes everything and makes conclusions out of small details. He also lives by a moral code about what is ok and not ok for him to do, and that's how I see myself. At the end of the 2cd movie when he logically decides that he cant stop the Professor and decides that the only way out it to grab him and take them both down a waterfall. He didn't include emotion in that decision, just analyzed everything and did the correct response without hesitation.

When I saw that video it made me unsure if you actually understand what I do. When I say I look at everything about a person I mean it. Yes that girl in the video showed many signs of justifying as a coping mechanism. Of course knowing how she acts in general is only PART of everything. She has social anxiety, so then I would have to look at how that could affect the currently made decision. Yes even if sex doesn't have special meaning to her, maybe she doesn't like sex that much. That possibility could come from anxiety. I guess what I'm saying is people aren't black on white based on only 1 standard. There are a lot of influencing factors with any person out there, To understand how a person is you have to look at EVERY factor about a person and find the motives for why those things exist, once you have those things its easy enough to place yourself in their shoes to understand how they think.

Whatever theredcore, you intentionally manipulate people, and on top of it you judge them, based on stupid stereotypes. I could have told you anything about this girl, you would still find a way to twist the truth to fit with your prejudices and beliefs about her. She is NOT the way you describe, and she DOES NOT blame others, she doesn't like prejudices against tattoos, which IS NOT the same as blaming others for whatever happens in your life. It is the same as anyone else who wouldn't like prejudices about whatever they like or are. She is still friend with her 2 exes, and doesn't blame them for this either. I repeat, 2 people could have a lot of tattoos, smoke, drink, and swear, and they could have completely opposite personalities, one of them could be a good person who would give you the shirt off her back, while another one could murder you in your sleep. 2 people could dress with the best clothes possible, not drink, not smoke, and not swear, and one of them could be a good person, while the other could be a murderer, and both could have the same personality as either of the 2 other ones who have tattoos, smoke, drink, and swear.

Your stereotypes are just that, stereotypes, and they are insulting.

I agree. Some of the most compassionate people I know have tattoos. They're decorative, that's all. It seems pretty stupid to assume anything based on someone's tattoo. Well, unless it's a swastika or something, that's a pretty obvious message that I probably don't want to get to know them. But--like, my friend has a tattoo of Hello Kitty on her shoulder. That says nothing about her except that she likes Hello Kitty and thought a tattoo would look cute. (She also let me stay with her when I was evicted from my apartment, so I wouldn't be homeless, and she asked for nothing in return. She housed and fed me for three months.)

Maybe it's comforting to think you can judge people by their appearances. Maybe it's disturbing to you that other people are to some degree unpredictable and uncontrollable. You just have to learn to live with that--you can't put other people in simple boxes based on appearance. You can never learn enough about people just by looking at them to be able to judge them right away. Instead, you have to learn about each individual person--not just by the way they look, but by the way they act, the things they say, and the world they come from. And even then they may still surprise you.

People are wonderful, complex, amazing. If you mash them down to a set of rules and stereotypes, you're missing out. Even if you were perfectly able to always get what you wanted out of people, you'd miss out on getting to know what their worlds are like. You're treating people like they're rats in a Skinner box, and you figure if you flash the right sequence of lights you can get them to push the lever. But people aren't like that. Even rats have personalities; human beings, much more so. You see people so simplistically, when really they're amazing and mysterious and they're carrying whole worlds around in their heads. It's like you're using the Mona Lisa to prop up your coffee table or something.

It's still seems like you don't get it. If your trying to say that the number of tattoos a person has isn't related to anything then that would be ignorant. Let's take a look at the other end. Do you think most girls who swear drink smoke are religious and go to church (saying the church part to sort out "pretend religious" people.) Do you really think that you are just as likely to find the same percentage of drug abuses, people who get drunk, and people filled with tattoos in a church compared to other settings like a bar? If your answer is no like it should be, then that shows that all of those things are LESS common, and therfore show something about that person. Yes you can find oddballs anywhere who show signs like having tattoos and still going to church. And all it would take is a 5 minute conversation with a person like that to see what type of person they really are.

here's something not gender specific but probably equally offensive to you.

People that are very overweight. POSSIBLE effects of that could be a lower self-esteem(which social problems could have came from, which could eventually develop into an attitude of not caring about people opinions as a way to cope) , lack of caring in general (if that one is true then lack of caring with other things in life as well) possible thyroid problem, I would take a guess on intelligence based on posture, presentation, eye movement, word choice (if I talk with that person). Of course because the only data I have is someone is overweight, I only have possible leads, after talking with that person I would then start to see which leads were correct (if any) and I would have a better idea of how this person thinks.

There is truth to alot of stereotypes (SOMETIMES) and if something had a higher chance of being true then not I will take it into consideration but not rely on it. When I kept saying that it nothing always fits perfectly, it's like a probability simulation. Yes probability says 90% chance this person acts this way, but it may only be from talking with that person to know of you were right or wrong. And if I'm wrong there was something I missed that I later know what it was.

I was only going to say that I go alot more I depth then that. I've said that alot, but it's still difficult to explain. Just if a girl thinks that see isn't sacred and it's more fun; it does NOT mean they are mean people, it does NOT mean that they are sluts who sleep with anyone, it does not mean they ccan't be giving. There are Alot of different sides to look at, that all and complement and take away from what makes a person them. What I don't like about these arguments is that because anyone on here don't know everything that I look at, and think they are saying contradicting things when they actually fit together when you look at a person's entire personality.


I know that people are unique, since math is logic I will try to explain my viewpoint. Say an action a person does in math = (x^5)/(x^2)+16-8(-y)^2 (where variables would be unknown traits about a person, numbers represent all the influencing factors for the motives behind why, and all the math represents how those motives affect each other. I may not have all the variables but I can at least simplify the above situation to x^3+8y^2+16 and that is a simplified easier to read equation. Every variable I find shows me more about someone, and helps me understand them better. Everything works together beautifully like a math problem and it creates amazing people with amazing personalities. People maybe share similar variables with different people, just very different combinations of variables mixing and colliding. I'm don't expect all of you to know everything I talked about in this last paragraph, but it's how I view almost any decision in life.

Last edited by theredcore on 17 Jun 2014, 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

The way you describe it in the op makes it sound a-okay to me. It sounds a lot like a successful salesman. Nothing wrong with that.

Of course there's bad manipulation w/ ill intentions right from the get go, i.e. lying/cheating/stealing.

But there's plenty of manipulation that goes on in daily life that's perfectly acceptable and even ideal, especially if it results in a win-win for all parties.

I don't like to think of myself as manipulative. I don't really care for manipulative people. I do, however, respect talented salesmen who win their negotiations via the art of manipulating situations to their advantage, whether selling a product, an idea/concept, or themselves in some way.

While I don't consider myself manipulative, I've certainly said and done things even within the last 24 hours that were intended to manipulate others in small subtle ways. It's sort of the way of the world.. either sell yourself well, or sell yourself short. Selling yourself well pretty much requires a little strategic manipulation.

What if somewhere deep inside you have a tremendous sense of insecurity, and therefore in the process of shunning this feeling a part of your life has turned into a constant game, where a repeated feeling of winning (/something over) and being in charge is needed to cover this ?loser?s wound??

I thought about what you said and this is how I can respond. I always liked the idea of understanding and knowing whats going on, which I guess understand leads to control. Also though I love diving into a situation with no control or understanding to see how fast I can understand everything and react, and to me that statement would mean that I love understanding more then I do control if I'm willing to give up control so easily. I never care if I win or lose, because I don't feel I'm playing a game, I feel like im developing a learning and understanding of how things work and that's a feeling that I love. I really did think about it and I can't think of any insecurities about myself because I accept what I like and what I don't like I look forward to for a goal to focus on, im very optimistic so thoughts of the future about myself or my life are always enough to make me happy. Because I don't hide things I have always been fascinated by power, but I would want to achieve power in a moral way. As I've said a million times already, I NEVER want to try to hurt people emotionally, its not a game to me, it IS fun because usually me and whoever im speaking with are having an enjoyable conversation.

Theredcore, what I mean in a larger sense is that whether we sense it consciously or not, wanting power kind of implies that deep down there is a need for it.

Also we people may think we read others like an open book or are the ones in power, but the existence of that thought doesn?t still necessarily mean that our judgment is right. You stated that my interpretation of your inner motifs is wrong, thus it is very possible that also your interpretations of others motifs and behavior are similarly wrong, unless you have an eye of an almighty.

You know yourself the best. And when we know ourselves, even those scared and insecure spots, we don?t necessarily need that much power over others, for we have then the power over ourselves.

I'm not sure if you read this portion just because I later added it in, but ill repost it in case you missed it, because this is the best way I can answer it.

I know that people are unique, since math is logic I will try to explain my viewpoint. Say an action a person does in math = (x^5)/(x^2)+16-8(-y)^2 (where variables would be unknown traits about a person, numbers represent all the influencing factors for the motives behind why, and all the math represents how those motives affect each other. I may not have all the variables but I can at least simplify the above situation to x^3+8y^2+16 and that is a simplified easier to read equation. Every variable I find shows me more about someone, and helps me understand them better. Everything works together beautifully like a math problem and it creates amazing people with amazing personalities. People maybe share similar variables with different people, just very different combinations of variables mixing and colliding. I'm don't expect all of you to know everything I talked about in this last paragraph, but it's how I view almost any decision in life.


For me I found and realized that every action people do comes from somewhere, and its like a math equation that I love trying to solve quicker and quicker, there are ALWAYS going to be plenty of variables but once you understand the equation of how everything comes together and interacts then its extremely easy for me to place myself in their shoes and see how they think. I had to realize that to understand people I couldn't think like myself when placing myself in their shoes I had to actually think like them to get the best idea of how they thought. As far as power goes, yes it had always fascinated me, but because its a new challenge. A true position of power is one that ive never held before, and that could be why its so interesting to me, because its an entirely new challenge. Also a position of power logically makes sense, I get paid more, so I can do other things I want to in life. If I had to pick between being a nobody or someone important I would pick the important guy because its more interesting and appealing. I think that I just have a love of solving problems and equations, and I have found how to implement that into real life conversations, to see how fast I can read people. (which again is harmless, because the faster I read someone, the better I can relate to them, and the better time they have)