Do Aspiens Have Unfair Expectations of NTs?

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emax10000
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10 Mar 2015, 9:31 pm

In general, expecting NTs to know about autism without being formally educated beforehand is not realistic. I do think that those with autism forget that NTs live in the same culture that refuses to educate people about autism that they do and so they also need to understand that NTs will often not understand why autistics have certain behaviors. It is an unfortunate fact that autistics often have immutable behaviors that can easily be interpreted as hostile, rude or even hateful by those who are not educated about their condition. So educating them first before passing any of our own judgements is critical.



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10 Mar 2015, 9:40 pm

Anachron wrote:
I have spent most of my life unaware of ASD. Realization is coming in many forms and on many levels. As I would struggle to meet seemingly impossible social expectations of me, I had been putting the same weight on others in other areas.

For example: I would think others would be unorganized because they were lazy or unmotivated while they thought I was not listening because I could not get past their shoddy sentence structure. I now see that, perhaps the need for organization or grammer or chit-chat, is not universal.

It is easy to see how hard people can be to me, but can I see it when I am the one dishing it out?

I wonder how many times I have done this?

Do you do it?


Yes. People drive me crazy sometimes because I watch them do things and can't help but think how much more efficient my ways of doing those things are. They usually don't want to hear about it, though, and telling them hurts their feelings. Apparently it's mean to try to help people see a better way to do things they've always done their own way.

I also think Aspies might have an unfair expectation of NT's (of everybody, really) to be honest, straightforward and aboveboard in their speech. To not have hidden agendas or communicate in hidden messages.

I think it might be unfair of Aspies to expect NT's to say what they mean and mean what they say. Because it doesn't seem to be the NT way of speaking. There is always an undercurrent, it seems, obvious to NT's, but so hard for Aspies to learn to recognize.


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Edna3362
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10 Mar 2015, 10:57 pm

Aspiens... Homo Sapiens... Aspie Aliens... :lol:

It varies in your culture which determines how difficult would it be.
Aspies can't/don't know/do (insert NT thing here), NTs can't/don't know/do (insert aspie/autie thing here).
NTs thought aspies could do (insert NT thing here) because it's easy for them.
Aspies thought NTs could do (insert aspie thing here) because it's easy for them, too.
Perhaps meeting halfway would but who knows when it'll happen. Or how would it happen...


Anyway, true enough. Sometimes I thought what I do was the norm or 'average' when in the eyes of others it isn't. Same goes to NTs to me, when they thought it's simple, to me it isn't. Both parties won't get along well that way.


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FireyInspiration
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10 Mar 2015, 11:19 pm

Some aspies have unfair expectations of NT's, in the same way some NT's have unfair expectations of aspies. Two such different interpretations of the world as a whole causes a clash, which is usually not an intent of either party.



cyberdad
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11 Mar 2015, 12:47 am

LyraLuthTinu wrote:
I also think Aspies might have an unfair expectation of NT's (of everybody, really) to be honest, straightforward and aboveboard in their speech. To not have hidden agendas or communicate in hidden messages.


This is a valid point but also (unfortunately) unrealistic. NTs communicate with non-verbal cues. Secondly they are conditioned from childhood so even their verbal communication is completely intertwined with innuendo, sarcasm, humor, sub-text and undercurrents etc...

It's quite different for most NTs to speak in entirely literal terms all the time in order to maintain a friendship with an average person with autims/aspergers...so you need to give them some allowance here...



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11 Mar 2015, 1:28 am

This is a great discussion, and a terrific use of this forum. Thanks to everyone -- I've really enjoyed reading your comments.

I think what is different about us is how we think, and we should be allowed to be ourselves. But this is within the bounds of what society allows, and if you can't accept social norms, you have the freedom to move to a different society or to reject society and live alone. I think all of these are good options to keep in mind -- everyone will have a different answer here for what is best for them.

I also think that people become more understanding of our quirks when they get to know us. To some degree people have to learn to trust us first, and once they have done that they can accept us for who we are. And the reverse, too.

So I don't like to move around a lot: I like to stay in one place and develop deep connections. When I live in a society where I trust others and they trust me, I lose a lot (but not all) of my anxiety and frustration with other people.

But yeah...I have to bite my tongue a lot about other people's ridiculous ideas of how to do things. It takes all kinds, and I live in a glass house, so...none of my business. (I just repeat these things to get myself to not say something I assume would be considered rude.)


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Hyperborean
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11 Mar 2015, 5:31 am

dryope wrote:
This is a great discussion, and a terrific use of this forum. Thanks to everyone -- I've really enjoyed reading your comments.

I think what is different about us is how we think, and we should be allowed to be ourselves. But this is within the bounds of what society allows, and if you can't accept social norms, you have the freedom to move to a different society or to reject society and live alone. I think all of these are good options to keep in mind -- everyone will have a different answer here for what is best for them.

I also think that people become more understanding of our quirks when they get to know us. To some degree people have to learn to trust us first, and once they have done that they can accept us for who we are. And the reverse, too.

So I don't like to move around a lot: I like to stay in one place and develop deep connections. When I live in a society where I trust others and they trust me, I lose a lot (but not all) of my anxiety and frustration with other people.

But yeah...I have to bite my tongue a lot about other people's ridiculous ideas of how to do things. It takes all kinds, and I live in a glass house, so...none of my business. (I just repeat these things to get myself to not say something I assume would be considered rude.)


I heartily agree, dryope. The comments here prove your point - if proof were needed - about how Aspiens (love this word!) have the innate ability to think differently, to view the world from angles that many NTs are incapable of imagining. I spend a lot of time in situations where people on the spectrum and neurotypicals work and socialise together, and it's very clear that when there is an effort to engage deeply with the other person's point of view, to see things through their eyes and take the time to appreciate the merits of their approach, then much progress can be made. This is particularly true when neurotypical and autistic artists come together - because art has its own way of thinking and seeing things. But with a little effort and compromise it can be applied to other fields as well.

Given the state of the world, what we need more than anything is people who can think differently. And we all know that some of the most innovative advances have been made by Aspiens.



kraftiekortie
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11 Mar 2015, 5:41 am

How do you feel about the term "Aspergian?"

Also: from my experience, I don't believe Aspiens are all saintly truth-tellers, and NT's all absolute liars. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I don't believe diplomatically expressing a thought, versus bluntly expressing the same thought, is "lying."



Andrejake
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11 Mar 2015, 6:10 am

EzraS wrote:
I try not to, probably to the point of being over tolerant.


I'm like this too.



Hyperborean
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11 Mar 2015, 6:34 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
How do you feel about the term "Aspergian?"

Also: from my experience, I don't believe Aspiens are all saintly truth-tellers, and NT's all absolute liars. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I don't believe diplomatically expressing a thought, versus bluntly expressing the same thought, is "lying."



'Aspergian' is wonderful too. :) It sounds like a school of philosophy in Ancient Greece. Maybe we should start a thread inviting people to invent collective nouns for those on the spectrum? (Maybe this has been done already.)

And you're right about strengths and weaknesses. As is often said here, people with ASD have individual character traits, whether inherited or acquired, the same as NTs - they are not defined by their condition. An example that I've noticed is how Aspergians in the USA sometimes fall foul of the Protestant work ethic that underpins American society, and find themselves labelled as 'lazy', whereas in other parts of the world, such as Southern Europe, this isn't such an issue - as can be seen by the state of the Greek economy! :lol:



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11 Mar 2015, 7:10 am

LyraLuthTinu wrote:
Yes. People drive me crazy sometimes because I watch them do things and can't help but think how much more efficient my ways of doing those things are. They usually don't want to hear about it, though, and telling them hurts their feelings. Apparently it's mean to try to help people see a better way to do things they've always done their own way.

I also think Aspies might have an unfair expectation of NT's (of everybody, really) to be honest, straightforward and aboveboard in their speech. To not have hidden agendas or communicate in hidden messages.

I think it might be unfair of Aspies to expect NT's to say what they mean and mean what they say. Because it doesn't seem to be the NT way of speaking. There is always an undercurrent, it seems, obvious to NT's, but so hard for Aspies to learn to recognize.

Absolutely love this post!

We have recently had a major (close to a million $ total after all is said and done) leak in our building at work. I tried to point out for years that it was going to happen but nobody ever listens to me. When I try to point out the many times I have been right, the superiors seemed to get so upset I just stopped caring. I do not understand why someone would willingly ignore someone with a track record of being correct. Are they all sadomasochists who enjoy making their lives miserable?

It's also almost like I am so honest everyone seems to think I am a liar.



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11 Mar 2015, 7:41 am

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
LyraLuthTinu wrote:
It's also almost like I am so honest everyone seems to think I am a liar.


At least you tried: first you put it diplomatically, then you gave it to them straight, but they refused to listen. What more could you do? People don't generally want to hear the truth. It hurts too much, and reminds them what fools they are.



Anachron
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11 Mar 2015, 12:55 pm

Compulsion and the way it is satisfied is exclusive to each individual regardless of whether you are,

Homo Sapien or
Homo Aspien.

Does knowing the difference lead to antipathy?



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11 Mar 2015, 1:07 pm

Hyperborean wrote:
At least you tried: first you put it diplomatically, then you gave it to them straight, but they refused to listen. What more could you do? People don't generally want to hear the truth. It hurts too much, and reminds them what fools they are.

Thanks. Yes, I did. I guess I still feel responsible even though you are right: few want to face the fact under the facade they are incompetent fools who only get ahead by BSing others. It begs the question of why nobody can spot the obvious BS but that's another long thread!

I got railroaded out of my first job for this exact reason. I knew too much and spoke up too loudly.... and it highlighted the sheer incompetence of certain higher ups. In hindsight, it was the best thing they ever could have done. Boy, was I a naive fool in my late teens/early 20s!



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11 Mar 2015, 1:10 pm

If anything, I've had such low expectations of other people throughout my life, I've put up with a lot of things I shouldn't have.



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11 Mar 2015, 2:16 pm

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
When I try to point out the many times I have been right, the superiors seemed to get so upset I just stopped caring.


Social hierarchy is everything to NTs, they see it everywhere, it is assumed to be the subtext underlying nearly every human interaction. You telling them about the problems you noticed is no exception: in their eyes, you were either trying to push them down in the social hierarchy by making them look stupid and incompetent, or you were trying to climb up over them in the hierarchy by making yourself look smart and hardworking, or both. People would risk all sorts of things, even their own businesses, just to maintain their place in this social hierarchy nonsense.