If you are aware of your disorder, do you still have it?

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MarketAndChurch
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17 Jun 2015, 2:39 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

That clinician sounds like an idiot...it is quite possible to be self aware of having a disorder, it is certainly possible you could be wrong about certain disorders you think you have since some can over-lap but they shouldn't just invalidate your experience like that even if they do think you could be incorrect. Sure there are people with disorders that are in denial...does not mean everyone with a given disorder is in denial. I've heard of plenty of schizophrenic people who are well aware they have schizophrenia...but yeah pretty sure there is no disorder being in denial is a requirement for.

I mean hell if people with things like paranoid PD, schizophrenia ect. have to remain indefinitely in denial to have the disorder what would be the point in treating it? What once the person in denial realizes maybe they do have a disorder like that they're cured?

One idea is use a more asking approach...I know it sounds kinda silly, but professionals like to feel like professionals, even if you are certain you have an undiagnosed condition....don't go in and say 'I have undiagnosed paranoid PD'? Might be better to tell them some concerns/symptoms your having without referencing the disorder and let them analyze and come to the conclusion of what disorder it could be, or even just say you're concerned you have Paranoid P.D...there are some ideas in psychology floating around about it being unwise for one to just decide they have a disorder without professional assessment, so any indication you know exactly what disorder you have might scare them away you could say they want to feel like they are assessing you and giving you an answer/diagnoses much of the time.



I know, right? Three to four sentences came out of my mouth and she stopped me dead in my tracks, as if that was a no-go avenue that we will NOT be exploring. I'm thinking of testing her resolve in my upcoming appointments by seeing how creatively she can link the non-Anxiety elements of my OCD and ADHD and PPD and AvPD back to the only thing she is obligated to treat: Anxiety.

It wasn't a healthy response, and it made me feel that sharing my symptoms with a medical examiner may not be a healthy thing to do going forward. Not to mention, that by removing their "powers" to be the ones who diagnose my shortcomings, that I not only won't get such a receptive response from medical professionals, but that this is somehow something that's up to me to treat on my own.

By the way, I did try your approach within this same hour-long appointment. I spent my time describing to her how my Avoidant Personality Disorder has caged me in my room since 2012, how it makes a suspicious primitive in public, and has been kicking my @$$ all of my school-long-life, and doing this without ever mentioning AvPD. She tried to show empathy as she switched tracks from what I was talking about, to the possible anxiety that could be behind all of this, and that sort of raised my temper, because I was also describing the tics I suffered from OCD and again that too was, again, empatheticly relayed back to the "root cause" of Anxiety. So I don't know. I guess I'll just have to use the next 12 months to get the best out of "Anxiety" treatment as I possibly could. But they shouldn't describe themselves as providing mental health services, because unless you are contemplating suicide, self-harm, or hallucinations, it really seems that you're on your own. Thank Sweetleaf for that advice though. Its really helping me to think through this.


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MarketAndChurch
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17 Jun 2015, 3:00 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
I think Sweetleaf touched on a good point, going in and saying "I have x" usually puts them on the defensive. I thought it would be helpful thing, but I've found it usually goes better if I go in saying my symptoms and ask them what they think.


I know what you're saying. But it took me 3-4 years to get an IBS diagnoses. The response I normally got from the doctors who saw me was "You know, when I'm hungry, I usually have a snack, especially if I know I won't make it to lunch time." That was it: Have a snack! Followups with my doctor weren't any better. With only 3 months left of school, I proactively looked up all of my symptoms, found out about IBS, and demanded from my doctor that I be seen for this because whatever it is that I have, IBS or not, I've already missed 5 months of high school because of it. I was immediately referred to specialists who diagnosed me quickly and comprehensively, and found out along the way a couple of other dietary allergies and syndromes that I suffered from that exacerbated the symptoms of my IBS.

My take away from this is that you have to be proactive, especially if you are as inarticulate, with a non-working memory-recall in social situations as I am. I've tried to reach out to doctors before about my anxiety. They didn't want to hear about it, and it really took me forcefully leading the conversation to how it immobilizes me that I finally got one prescription for an anti-deppressant. But you know... to protect myself, I think it's pretty sound advice to stick to.


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MarketAndChurch
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17 Jun 2015, 3:14 pm

Callista wrote:
It is both possible and common.

In psychology, the term is "good insight", and it means that you are aware of your own thinking and how it affects you.

The idea that "crazy people don't know they're crazy" is a fallacy. Most people with mental illnesses and neurological conditions (autism is a neurological difference, by the way, not a mental illness; the autistic brain is built differently) know that they are different and know that they are having problems related to that difference.

Some disorders can have poor insight, but these are usually ones that involve psychosis, like bipolar mania or schizophrenia. And even then, some of those people are aware of what's happening, especially during the less-severe parts of their episodes of psychosis.


Yeah. I watched my brother go down with Schizophrania, and did nothing to stop it. I don't blame myself for it, but to my overly logically autsie brain, voices can't talk to you, nor are the people around you talking to you. He was aware of his progressively degrading situation and reached out constantly for help, on an almost daily basis.

So I agree entirely. You can be aware and have insight into your degrading circumstance before you reach a low point where denial is likely to occur, or having had a taste of your own poison from other family members who have what you have, not want to be like or be that kind of person. Thank you for this Callista,


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17 Jun 2015, 3:24 pm

Kiriae wrote:
It is possible.

However in your case you might have to ask yourself if it is really a disorder on your side or you simply take over the believes of your father and brother.

My father is really distrusting and paranoid too and I picked it up from him but those aren't my thoughts. For example he always used to say "Clean your room when you invite people or else your friends will talk about you behind your back" so I clean my room out of fear I will lose my friends but I personally don't fully believe my friends would betray me just for seeing some mess. It seems illogical to me. But I follow it anyway.

Sometimes it is hard to distinguish what your loved ones used to tell you when you were growing up from your personal thoughts and believes because their statements are fixed deep in your mind.


That is interesting, and I'm fully open to my not having PPD, or inaccurately prescribing it to others in my family. My dad made my mom not wear lipstick because he felt she was trying to attract the attraction of other men. She's never worn lipstick as a result. Forget the fact that is rather fascist with the backing of physical and mental abuse, but his insecurity about her leaving him caused him to never allow her to drive and be wholly dependent on him. It almost lead to divorce when she finally stood up to him and took on a part time job. I hated his jealousy streak, only to discover that I inhibit the same psychological and emotional insecurity/immaturity. This is just one of the many shortcomings of PPD that I had to grow up with, but to grow up detesting and protesting an abusive individual who suffered from PPD paired with aspergers and anxiety disorder, only to be disgusted with its own expression in yourself, sort of leads to an inevitable and almost unavoidable self-awareness of it.

But I thank you for clarifying this. I think my circumstance is just unique.


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kamiyu910
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17 Jun 2015, 4:33 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
I think Sweetleaf touched on a good point, going in and saying "I have x" usually puts them on the defensive. I thought it would be helpful thing, but I've found it usually goes better if I go in saying my symptoms and ask them what they think.


I know what you're saying. But it took me 3-4 years to get an IBS diagnoses. The response I normally got from the doctors who saw me was "You know, when I'm hungry, I usually have a snack, especially if I know I won't make it to lunch time." That was it: Have a snack! Followups with my doctor weren't any better. With only 3 months left of school, I proactively looked up all of my symptoms, found out about IBS, and demanded from my doctor that I be seen for this because whatever it is that I have, IBS or not, I've already missed 5 months of high school because of it. I was immediately referred to specialists who diagnosed me quickly and comprehensively, and found out along the way a couple of other dietary allergies and syndromes that I suffered from that exacerbated the symptoms of my IBS.

My take away from this is that you have to be proactive, especially if you are as inarticulate, with a non-working memory-recall in social situations as I am. I've tried to reach out to doctors before about my anxiety. They didn't want to hear about it, and it really took me forcefully leading the conversation to how it immobilizes me that I finally got one prescription for an anti-deppressant. But you know... to protect myself, I think it's pretty sound advice to stick to.


Yeah, even when going in just describing symptoms doesn't always work :( Took me about 7 months of being told I was "just depressed" or "I don't know, take these pills" before they figured out my thyroid was broken and killing me.
For psychiatrists, I've never had one I liked. I had one therapist who I did kinda like but the visits stopped helping after a while. My very first one (when I was 14) called me a spoiled brat to my face, with my dad in the room, just because I have a serious problem with not being able to clean.
So my opinion of those in psychiatry is not exactly high... especially since the psychologist I saw said I shouldn't exist, had no idea how to figure out my IQ, and said some other equally confusing things.
I hope you can get some help out of the one you're seeing.


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18 Jun 2015, 8:55 am

I wasn't aware that ASD described me well until adulthood, but I don't think that would mean I "grew out of it" and I more authentically had it as a child.

Not that any of the dozens of psychs I saw as a child gave me good answers anyways. I got a pathetic number of "you're just depressed" or "your parents are just bad parents" and various pointless crap before I just stopped trying. I'm completely pro self-dx (and was before I learned there were other people who were too) because I know all about how frustrating and demoralizing and humiliating it can be to get proper help from a "professional".

Easy for them to say whatever they want. They're not the ones living with this every day.



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18 Jun 2015, 11:00 am

OCD and AvPD are probably both rooted in anxiety, and the behaviors your describe are signs of severe anxiety, so the psych may be right about your anxiety.


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18 Jun 2015, 1:06 pm

It's strange that her evidence for you not having paranoid PD is that she thinks you're (merely) being paranoid!

More seriously, I think that (good) psychiatrists only diagnose people if they think it will help them. Sometimes a diagnosis (especially with personality disorders) can make things worse, so maybe they're refraining from diagnosing unless it is absolutely necessary and/or beneficial.



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18 Jun 2015, 1:16 pm

When a person has an illness like say, a cold, being aware of it sure isn't going to automatically cure it.
The same is true for a disorder.



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18 Jun 2015, 1:36 pm

I wasn't aware I had an Autism until I was in my mid 30's. My ex wife mentioned that I might be Autistic. After doing about 8 online tests the numbers were off the charts. This explained my talents and my social conflicts. I finally saw a counselor and got a "proper" diagnosis just to prove I wasn't crazy.

I even have big problems understanding the point of topics and conversations. Like this post for example, I try my best to add my two cents but I could be way off and not know it.

Yes you still have it, absolutely. Learning how to work with it is best.



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18 Jun 2015, 11:40 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
OCD and AvPD are probably both rooted in anxiety, and the behaviors your describe are signs of severe anxiety, so the psych may be right about your anxiety.


As I said before, it's certainly a possibility that I'm open to. But it doesn't seem that she is, or anytime in the near future, will be, interested in exploring anything beyond that which she and her organization is contractually obligated to explore... which are anything that falls under the umbrella of Addiction, Substance Abuse, Depression, and Anxiety.

So she may be right, but lacks the context necessary to see the whole picture, and reversing the order of which leads to which, may be wasting my time with improper treatment. I have crippling anxiety, for sure. But I've learned to manage that anxiety with risk-averse behavior that helps me get by. But that's not what I need. I simply need a thorough psychological assessment, or for her to take my word for it, that my ADHD and OCD is kicking my @$$, and that even in the confines of my bedroom, I struggle with online courses because of it. With my ADHD and OCD raging wild, stress and anxiety builds as a result, and she's focusing on the wrong root cause.


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18 Jun 2015, 11:49 pm

MarkOrbit wrote:

I even have big problems understanding the point of topics and conversations. Like this post for example, I try my best to add my two cents but I could be way off and not know it.

Yes you still have it, absolutely. Learning how to work with it is best.



No worries mate, life for me has been nothing but a struggle to fill back in the context I'm not seeing. I think a large number of us spend our time going through life context-blind. I think the effort is what counts, and people can recognize an earnest soul, even if you can't fully relate in the proper context. Cheers man.


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19 Jun 2015, 12:19 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
OCD and AvPD are probably both rooted in anxiety, and the behaviors your describe are signs of severe anxiety, so the psych may be right about your anxiety.


As I said before, it's certainly a possibility that I'm open to. But it doesn't seem that she is, or anytime in the near future, will be, interested in exploring anything beyond that which she and her organization is contractually obligated to explore... which are anything that falls under the umbrella of Addiction, Substance Abuse, Depression, and Anxiety.

So she may be right, but lacks the context necessary to see the whole picture, and reversing the order of which leads to which, may be wasting my time with improper treatment. I have crippling anxiety, for sure. But I've learned to manage that anxiety with risk-averse behavior that helps me get by. But that's not what I need. I simply need a thorough psychological assessment, or for her to take my word for it, that my ADHD and OCD is kicking my @$$, and that even in the confines of my bedroom, I struggle with online courses because of it. With my ADHD and OCD raging wild, stress and anxiety builds as a result, and she's focusing on the wrong root cause.


In my opinion, severe anxiety is as important to deal with as autism or a personality disorder. It can negatively affect a person's life more than autism or personality disorder. Since you know that you have severe anxiety, I think it could be most helpful and beneficial to work with a therapist to reduce it somewhat. Anxiety affects a lot how you feel and think and act, so assessment of other disorders in the presence of anxiety could lead to inaccurate or inconclusive results.


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19 Jun 2015, 1:52 am

btbnnyr wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
OCD and AvPD are probably both rooted in anxiety, and the behaviors your describe are signs of severe anxiety, so the psych may be right about your anxiety.


As I said before, it's certainly a possibility that I'm open to. But it doesn't seem that she is, or anytime in the near future, will be, interested in exploring anything beyond that which she and her organization is contractually obligated to explore... which are anything that falls under the umbrella of Addiction, Substance Abuse, Depression, and Anxiety.

So she may be right, but lacks the context necessary to see the whole picture, and reversing the order of which leads to which, may be wasting my time with improper treatment. I have crippling anxiety, for sure. But I've learned to manage that anxiety with risk-averse behavior that helps me get by. But that's not what I need. I simply need a thorough psychological assessment, or for her to take my word for it, that my ADHD and OCD is kicking my @$$, and that even in the confines of my bedroom, I struggle with online courses because of it. With my ADHD and OCD raging wild, stress and anxiety builds as a result, and she's focusing on the wrong root cause.


In my opinion, severe anxiety is as important to deal with as autism or a personality disorder. It can negatively affect a person's life more than autism or personality disorder. Since you know that you have severe anxiety, I think it could be most helpful and beneficial to work with a therapist to reduce it somewhat. Anxiety affects a lot how you feel and think and act, so assessment of other disorders in the presence of anxiety could lead to inaccurate or inconclusive results.


No, I'm with you entirely. But that's not why I sought out mental health at this specific time. PPD and AvPD simply came up as I was describing my symptoms to her. Anxiety is what she is choosing to treat me for going forward. But I went in there simply to deal with my ADHD, and OCD. Look, I realize that my life ain't normal, being chained to my bedroom, only leaving occasionally if necessary. No one should have to live like that, and my anxiety needs to be dealt with. But that can be dealt with down the road... as in, 4-6 months from right now. Right now I'm taking 3 online courses, and whereas it may take the average person 4 days worth of work at most, I'm sacrificing 6 and a half to simply do the same the amount of work it takes a normal person to do. I spend 14 of my 16 waking hours daydreaming and talking to myself, and 4 hours of my sleeping time doing the same, and my tics are getting worse.

I simply need a doctor to give me a note I can take to the disability office at my college saying I need some basic accommodations for my OCD and ADHD, including an extra hour to do my math exam, and maybe an extra 3x5 notecard of math notes because of my poor working memory, and some medication to slow down my thoughts. That's it. That's all I need right now, and it seems that I will get the run-around well before the term ends. The anxiety is born from the other shortcomings I have. That I just spent hours wasted, and that I'm inching ever closer to bedtime, where I will again struggle with controlling my thoughts, and spend half the night daydreaming. A hyperactive mind with no restraint. And knowing that the cycle will repeat the next afternoon when I wake up, with even less time to study or turn in an upcoming assignment ahead of a looming due date. This... is my source of anxiety and stress. Help me get a hold of my overactive mind, and I'll be more then happy to seek out help for my anxiety.


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19 Jun 2015, 1:57 am

My brother was with this same organization. He has severe Schizophrenia. I remember attending his appointments too, and they are sort of a waste of time, spending time talking about your feelings, talking about good life skills, and an action plan to lead a more productive life.

That's not what I sought Mental Health services for. I have a disability office at my college that needs doctors notes for simple requests such as an increase in the amount of time it takes to take a test, or relaxing the standards for how many notes you can use on tests if you have a non-existent memory, and I can't even approach the disability office for these simple things if my clinician finds them a non-issue.

I need basic medication to stop my brain from day-dreaming the day(and half my night) away. To slow my ADHD down. To limit the tics from OCD. I need disorder-specific therapy. Not lessons in being compassionate(which is the class I have to attend next week) and being open about my feelings, or telling me advice I can google. I'm taking college classes and am forced to take only online classes because of anxiety related issues, but alone in the room I'm caged to, I struggle from not being able to focus on my work. Assignments that should take me no more then 3 hours take me two and a half days. Any anxiety I develop is rooted in my inability to perform normally in the controlled safe-haven of my bedroom.


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19 Jun 2015, 2:01 am

hiraeth wrote:
I wasn't aware that ASD described me well until adulthood, but I don't think that would mean I "grew out of it" and I more authentically had it as a child.

Not that any of the dozens of psychs I saw as a child gave me good answers anyways. I got a pathetic number of "you're just depressed" or "your parents are just bad parents" and various pointless crap before I just stopped trying. I'm completely pro self-dx (and was before I learned there were other people who were too) because I know all about how frustrating and demoralizing and humiliating it can be to get proper help from a "professional".

Easy for them to say whatever they want. They're not the ones living with this every day.


I want you to know that you speak for more people then you can imagine. Personally, I think a large part of it may just be the human, or lack-thereof person-to-person disconnect. In other words, I just think it's the breakdown of the interaction, and the doctor judging you more on how they feel about you as an individual or the sloppy social interaction they're having with you, rather then on what you're saying. But I don't know, I have much to learn as seeking treatment is all new to me. Thank you for sharing that though.


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