Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

Why are people religious? (need advice)

Page 2 of 3 [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

maglevsky
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2014
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 216

25 Aug 2015, 8:49 am

Did you ever met anyone who can actually define what they mean by any of these words:
"religious"
"God"
"believe"
?

I haven't.
Isn't part of the "God" concept that it's something beyond human comprehension?
Sure, some people I've asked this have thrown me a few semi-random words, but when I discuss the implications of their "definition" with them it soon becomes apparent that they haven't actually thought it through, and moreover, they don't want to think it through and resent me for making it obvious that they have no idea what they're talking about.

So, if you think you've spotted a logical contradiction between "person A says they are religious" and "person A says they do not believe in God", I would advise you to keep shtum about it when you're around NTs because (a) NTs have an unfortunate tendency to hate logic and those who use it, and more importantly (b) because it's logically wrong to assert that there is a logical contradiction when the basic terms are undefined. Or as Caelum said:

Quote:
it might sound like, why are you wearing the grey shirt, you had waffles for breakfast!


_________________
Father of 2 children diagnosed with ASD, and 2 more who have not been evaluated.


teksla
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Gender: Female
Posts: 783

25 Aug 2015, 9:07 am

maglevsky wrote:
Did you ever met anyone who can actually define what they mean by any of these words:
"religious"
"God"
"believe"
?

I haven't.
Isn't part of the "God" concept that it's something beyond human comprehension?
Sure, some people I've asked this have thrown me a few semi-random words, but when I discuss the implications of their "definition" with them it soon becomes apparent that they haven't actually thought it through, and moreover, they don't want to think it through and resent me for making it obvious that they have no idea what they're talking about.

So, if you think you've spotted a logical contradiction between "person A says they are religious" and "person A says they do not believe in God", I would advise you to keep shtum about it when you're around NTs because (a) NTs have an unfortunate tendency to hate logic and those who use it, and more importantly (b) because it's logically wrong to assert that there is a logical contradiction when the basic terms are undefined. Or as Caelum said:
Quote:
it might sound like, why are you wearing the grey shirt, you had waffles for breakfast!

Religious= in this case that they belong to the church
God= a higher power


_________________
Diagnosed with
F84.8 (PDD-NOS) 2014
F33.1 Major Depressive Disorder, recurrent, moderate.


Anachron
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2015
Posts: 431
Location: Within & Beyond

25 Aug 2015, 9:32 am

It is like joining the mafia.
Religion has more to do with power than principle.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,354

25 Aug 2015, 10:21 am

maglevsky wrote:
if you think you've spotted a logical contradiction between "person A says they are religious" and "person A says they do not believe in God", I would advise you to keep shtum about it when you're around NTs because (a) NTs have an unfortunate tendency to hate logic and those who use it, and more importantly (b) because it's logically wrong to assert that there is a logical contradiction when the basic terms are undefined

I think most people would accept that there's something of a contradiction in an atheist going to church, which I think is what the OP was asking about.
http://atheism.about.com/od/whoareathei ... Church.htm



Caelum
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 199
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

25 Aug 2015, 11:16 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
I think most people would accept that there's something of a contradiction in an atheist going to church, which I think is what the OP was asking about.
http://atheism.about.com/od/whoareathei ... Church.htm


Sure, but they aren't self defining as atheist and still going to church. This is someone else labeling them as atheist because they don't believe in God, which just doesn't really work in the real world. Obviously they self define as churchgoer, for some reason. There are a variety of reason for this.

Atheism is a different discussion entirely, and just because someone doesn't believe in a higher power, doesn't mean they accept the banner of atheism. Many people haven't thought about it and don't have an opinion on it. They don't believe in a higher power because they don't really see a reason to, but by the same token, they aren't atheist because they don't see a reason to be. It doesn't matter, so they go to church because they self identify as someone who goes to church. There is no contradiction here and there is nothing wrong with this, it's pretty normal. Just because something is important to you doesn't make it universally important to everyone. Belief in God might not be that important to them, but culture and tradition and keeping in touch with their friends might be very important, and so being a churchgoer has a higher priority than you might expect if you are labeling people based on arbitrary metrics of what you think things mean.

Good luck and stay safe.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,354

25 Aug 2015, 1:47 pm

Caelum wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I think most people would accept that there's something of a contradiction in an atheist going to church, which I think is what the OP was asking about.
http://atheism.about.com/od/whoareathei ... Church.htm


Sure, but they aren't self defining as atheist and still going to church. This is someone else labeling them as atheist because they don't believe in God, which just doesn't really work in the real world. Obviously they self define as churchgoer, for some reason. There are a variety of reason for this.

Atheism is a different discussion entirely, and just because someone doesn't believe in a higher power, doesn't mean they accept the banner of atheism. Many people haven't thought about it and don't have an opinion on it. They don't believe in a higher power because they don't really see a reason to, but by the same token, they aren't atheist because they don't see a reason to be.

It seems pretty clear that the OP's friend does not believe in god(s). I guess you're taking atheism as meaning something more than the literal Greek "without gods" meaning, which is all I mean when I use the term. "People who don't believe in god(s)" would have served just as well. I guess you see something different in the term, judging by your reference to "the banner of atheism," which to me suggests what some call "strong atheism."

I don't think the problem between the OP and his friend has anything to do with the use of the word. The apparent contradiction is to do with not believing in god yet still going to church where priests regularly declare, one way or another, that there is a god. Both in my direct and indirect experience of preaching, the insinuation that there is a god has always been central to what preachers do. The apparent contradiction is between not believing in god(s) and attending an institution whose purpose is to reinforce that very belief.

Quote:
they go to church because they self identify as someone who goes to church. There is no contradiction here and there is nothing wrong with this, it's pretty normal. Just because something is important to you doesn't make it universally important to everyone. Belief in God might not be that important to them, but culture and tradition and keeping in touch with their friends might be very important, and so being a churchgoer has a higher priority than you might expect if you are labeling people based on arbitrary metrics of what you think things mean.

I gave several such possible reasons myself in an earlier post here. Perhaps you didn't see that? As for insinuating the universal importance of things, isn't that exactly what you're doing with this emphatic assertion that there is no contradiction? For you, there might not be. For others, including the OP, there is. Nobody's threatening anybody's right to go to a church, as far as I can see.



Caelum
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 199
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

26 Aug 2015, 9:13 am

Hey ToughDiamond, I wasn't trying to call you out at all. I did see your earlier reasons. My word choice was poor, I started using 'you,' I meant it in the general sense and probably should have used 'one' or 'people' or something else instead. I'm sorry for being arrogant and condescending. Let me try again.

The point I was trying to make is humans are very complex. Sometimes religion isn't about God. It's a social construct and it can be very compelling. So, for example, let's take a hypothetical person who belongs to the church of the 3-ring binder. This person doesn't believe in God, nor in 3-ring binders, however, they are a binderite because they do the things binderites do. They belong to that community and belief is a secondary consideration.
So they go to church and the preacher preaches about God or the 3-ring binder or whatever it is the preacher does, but that doesn't matter, because they don't go to church to listen to the preacher or to worship. They go because they are a binderite, and that is what binderites do.

Anyway, sorry again.
Good luck and stay safe.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,354

26 Aug 2015, 11:17 am

Caelum wrote:
Hey ToughDiamond, I wasn't trying to call you out at all. I did see your earlier reasons. My word choice was poor, I started using 'you,' I meant it in the general sense and probably should have used 'one' or 'people' or something else instead. I'm sorry for being arrogant and condescending. Let me try again.

The point I was trying to make is humans are very complex. Sometimes religion isn't about God. It's a social construct and it can be very compelling. So, for example, let's take a hypothetical person who belongs to the church of the 3-ring binder. This person doesn't believe in God, nor in 3-ring binders, however, they are a binderite because they do the things binderites do. They belong to that community and belief is a secondary consideration.
So they go to church and the preacher preaches about God or the 3-ring binder or whatever it is the preacher does, but that doesn't matter, because they don't go to church to listen to the preacher or to worship. They go because they are a binderite, and that is what binderites do.

Anyway, sorry again.
Good luck and stay safe.

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain. No offense taken. It did look to me as if you might have been "having a go" before, but these things are often completely accidental. I probably did the same thing in my reply.

No problem about the way you describe why some people who don't believe in deities go to church of course. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is how they stand it, given that hearing the preacher and having to give the impression of worshipping usually takes up such a lot of the time in a church session. But then, I'm told that people sometimes sit through advertising presentations purely to get a free gift at the end.



cathylynn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,045
Location: northeast US

26 Aug 2015, 11:21 am

i like the music.



timf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,191

26 Aug 2015, 2:46 pm

Why are people religious? (need advice)

1. Most people are of a particular religion or denomination because that is the religion or denomination in which they were raised and in which they feel comfortable.

2. Some people are drawn to a particular religion or denomination because they feel that one or more of the attributes are such as to be compatible with their preferences. For example, many people are drawn to Mormonism or Islam because they emphasize family life and conservative or traditional values.

3. Some people see in a particular religion or denomination an opportunity for social or economic advancement.

4. Some people are drawn to a particular religion or denomination because they feel that the beliefs that are held are correct, right, or true.

5. There are some who claim to have no religion at all (secular). However, they often live as if their secularism was a religion. One might consider secularism to the be worship of man in general and self in particular. One might consider universities to be their temples, the media to be their evangelists, and government to be their god.

What makes things even more confusing is that many people are unaware of the tenants of the religion which they claim and can even be in opposition to them.

If a particular person is unhelpful in answering a question about their professed religion, you can always ask someone else, or research on the Internet. You will find that quite often people will be unhelpful (for a variety of reasons ranging from incompetence to malice) in the information they can supply.



marcb0t
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Apr 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 589
Location: Washington

26 Aug 2015, 8:19 pm

timf wrote:
Why are people religious? (need advice)

1. Most people are of a particular religion or denomination because that is the religion or denomination in which they were raised and in which they feel comfortable.

2. Some people are drawn to a particular religion or denomination because they feel that one or more of the attributes are such as to be compatible with their preferences. For example, many people are drawn to Mormonism or Islam because they emphasize family life and conservative or traditional values.

3. Some people see in a particular religion or denomination an opportunity for social or economic advancement.

4. Some people are drawn to a particular religion or denomination because they feel that the beliefs that are held are correct, right, or true.

5. There are some who claim to have no religion at all (secular). However, they often live as if their secularism was a religion. One might consider secularism to the be worship of man in general and self in particular. One might consider universities to be their temples, the media to be their evangelists, and government to be their god.

What makes things even more confusing is that many people are unaware of the tenants of the religion which they claim and can even be in opposition to them.

If a particular person is unhelpful in answering a question about their professed religion, you can always ask someone else, or research on the Internet. You will find that quite often people will be unhelpful (for a variety of reasons ranging from incompetence to malice) in the information they can supply.


Actually, pretty much all these things you've said are true. From my personal experience, Jesus was drawing my heart to fellowship with people who wanted to hate their own lives, carry their crosses daily, and follow Jesus. And I didn't see this powerful way of living in any other Church around me. So I pulled up stakes, left my old life behind, and God led me to Church that might not be considered comfortable. But since I saw it was God's will to be in a place where I could grow instead of stagnate, that in and of itself was motivation... the love of Christ compelling me all the way. And I don't regret it at all. After losing my whole life for Jesus, I don't feel that I've really lost anything at all! :)

Still, there are many sins for me to repent of, but I know I can trust in God's grace to help me with that along the narrow way.

Tit.2.11-13 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

That's really it in a nutshell. I'm not comfortable sharing ALL the personal details and struggles thereof in such a public manner, but I wanted to share my experience in a way that is relevant to this thread.

Much love and peace,
marcb0t :heart:


_________________
The cutest most lovable little rob0t on Earth! (^.^)


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

26 Aug 2015, 8:27 pm

I wish the OP would clarify just what he is asking.

Is he asking why people in general become religious?

Or is he asking "how can a person be atheist and religious at the same time?"?

Going to church and being religious aren't the same thing. There are reasons an nonbeliever might be a churchgoer (to join in a community, to network, to meet members of the opposite sex, etc).

But why such a person would be defensive about it I do not know.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,354

26 Aug 2015, 10:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Is he asking why people in general become religious?

Or is he asking "how can a person be atheist and religious at the same time?"?

Judging by the original post, I'm pretty sure it's the latter, isn't it?



teksla
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Gender: Female
Posts: 783

27 Aug 2015, 2:11 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Is he asking why people in general become religious?

Or is he asking "how can a person be atheist and religious at the same time?"?

Judging by the original post, I'm pretty sure it's the latter, isn't it?

Im actually a she. But the second option. Ps they dont actually don't go to church.


_________________
Diagnosed with
F84.8 (PDD-NOS) 2014
F33.1 Major Depressive Disorder, recurrent, moderate.


cheryll
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 30 Apr 2015
Posts: 66
Location: UK

27 Aug 2015, 2:29 am

teksla wrote:
Hello.
All of my friends are officially religious (they belong the church) but they dont believe in god (or heaven/hell)?
What is the point of being christian if you dont believe in god?
Last time i brought it up she said that she is now mad at me and i am not allowed to bring it up again (to which i replied that then she is not allowed to talk about it if she does not want me answering).
I understand people being religious but officially being religious but not believing in god? That i do not understand.
Help me try to understand


Hi, I can see why you don't understand people who go to church yet don't believe in God. First of all, you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in Jesus and God, the Heavenly Father. Therefore, your friend is not a Christian even if she thinks she is. People sometimes go to church because of the social aspect of it rather than to worship God and that's what it sounds like your friend is doing. To be fair, some of these churches nowadays are like social clubs and there are a lot of 'Christians' that don't even read their bibles, pray or even know who God and Jesus really are.



ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,354

27 Aug 2015, 2:22 pm

cheryll wrote:
some of these churches nowadays are like social clubs and there are a lot of 'Christians' that don't even read their bibles, pray or even know who God and Jesus really are.

Yes. Although I've never personally noticed a service that doesn't get the congregation to "pray" or sing some confirmation of belief in (and high regard for) a deity, they might exist, and I'm sure that some sects are far less likely than others to actually pry into the beliefs of the individual churchgoer. Though they never issue a guarantee, so I'm always slightly apprehensive when I have anything to do with priests that they'll bring it up and I'll have to choose between lying and causing embarrassment. Here's a place that wouldn't create that problem:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... y-assembly

Not that I expect I'd like that much either. It looks like they go in for charismatic leaders (I don't trust those), and I don't like the general idea of trying to set atheism up as a quasi-religion. To me, like to most secular people I know, calling atheism a religion is like calling not collecting stamps a hobby.